Drop in lithium batteries

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It is not technically impossible, or even difficult really.
Not compared say to electronic engine controls or designing and building a Radar.
I’m surprised there isn’t an affordable one already.
There are many true unsupervised chargers for large Lithium battery banks in existence, have been for a decade at least.
Even the alternator “problem” isn’t difficult to resolve, just cut field power as opposed to simple disconnection.

There must not be enough demand, or some companies are missing out big.

The bit that is missing is that the very definition of those "drop in" battery solutions is that they do not have the means to communicate with the rest of the system.

[Oceansailor]

Originally Posted by Username25

I'm saying that Victron's major competitor was using Winston cells. I have no info about Victron. Problem is not quality of cells, but the rest. You can easily swap cells, but in case electronics fail... you are f**** if 2 year warranty period is over. Victron's LFP and BMS are separate units, so it is better solution, but the price is astronomical... Lynx Ion BMS 400A >1285€, 1000A > 2045€. PM me if interested, I can show you few pics of an autopsy...

To my knowledge Victron uses Thunder Sky Winston cells.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

The bit that is missing is that the very definition of those "drop in" battery solutions is that they do not have the means to communicate with the rest of the system.

Neither do other batteries (and yes, I understand they are different in critical ways). Since you statement is at the very heart of the thread, why not elaborate? Without details, your statement could more efficiently be shortened to "no."

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

The bit that is missing is that the very definition of those "drop in" battery solutions is that they do not have the means to communicate with the rest of the system.

What does that mean?
I don’t know what is out there, just stating that a drop in isn’t from a technology standpoint a difficult problem. You could easily have it alarm and display fault codes for example, feed it the wrong voltage and it squeals.

I don’t see it as being much if any more difficult than a Balmar alternator regulator for example, actually easier cause you take out the possible installation errors since it’s built in from the factory.

[Oceansailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

What does that mean?
I don’t know what is out there, just stating that a drop in isn’t from a technology standpoint a difficult problem. You could easily have it alarm and display fault codes for example, feed it the wrong voltage and it squeals.

I don’t see it as being much if any more difficult than a Balmar alternator regulator for example, actually easier cause you take out the possible installation errors since it’s built in from the factory.

Super-B has external communication. CanBus or Bluetooth.
http://www.super-b.com/en/automotive...specifications

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

The bit that is missing is that the very definition of those "drop in" battery solutions is that they do not have the means to communicate with the rest of the system.

Well there are ones that do, likely more than just victron's.

"Hybrid drop-in?"

[admiralslater]

I was under the impression that with drop ins that each battery would look after itself . I take it that this is not the case.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

I was under the impression that with drop ins that each battery would look after itself . I take it that this is not the case.

That is mine as well.
However it seems I guess that external communication as in I guess being able to check status is desired? Not sure what for though, but it certainly couldn’t hurt I guess, drive prices up a bit, but likely not much.

Drop in by definition, means install and forget, or it does to me.
Like our current lead acid batteries can pretty much be installed and forgotten about.
Yes they will last longer if “coddled” but only very few are, and they don’t require it.

[john61ct]

Advantages of comms with the outside.

As above, a major flaw is they can damage alternators or sensitive electronic devices. Notifying about-to-isolate could prevent that.

A more thorough centralized management system could signal on/off without relying on an additional set of relays.

Reporting cell voltages, current rate, internal temperatures etc. . .

But yes, these advantages are not part of the "drop-in" spirit, thus deserve their own in-between category name.

[admiralslater]

I understand (sort of ) the desire to have an external monitor system. But in real life how much does it affect the day to day user . Are failures wide spread

[a64pilot]

You have to define what comms to the outside means, just info or control?
As far as alternator, that wouldn't be hard but would require the drop in installation BMS have the field wire go through it, so that it could control alternator.
All other charge sources could be connected to a bus, software could cut alternator field wire power first before bank disconnect from the Bus when it's charged. Solar, shore power etc continues to supply, but is simply disconnected

Some users would lose tachometer I assume with alternator output.

BMS would know individual cell temp and voltage and could balance the cells at each charge.

Model airplanes Lipo packs are charged with the BMS as part of the charger, the charger connects to each cell individually and charges each cell independently of the others. works cause you have small, cheap packs and don't want to pay for a BMS in each pack, plus you can get a pretty sophisticated programmable BMS in the charger as you only buy one, not needed here, You don't want a BMS in each charge source, although that is how we handle our lead banks.

The dive scooter I had, the BMS is part of the battery, the charger just supply x volts at x
current is all, like a boat could do.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

I understand (sort of ) the desire to have an external monitor system. But in real life how much does it affect the day to day user . Are failures wide spread

It wouldn't be hard to do, if you tie into the OBD2 connector of most any vehicle made this Century you would be astonished at how much data is there.
However almost none is needed to operate the car of course.
How much data do we get for our engines? I only had RPM and a buzzer / lights, yet the engine ran fine for 30 yrs.

For most a drop in means just that, install and forget. They don't want to know anything, they just want it to work

[john61ct]

Yes and with thoughtful planning they can be made to "work" in the normal sense.

But following mfg specs will you get enough longevity to make a decent ROI on the high acquisition cost compared to quality lead?

No.

Which is what terser commentators mean when they say "impossible" or "no such thing".

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes and with thoughtful planning they can be made to "work" in the normal sense.

But following mfg specs will you get enough longevity to make a decent ROI on the high acquisition cost compared to quality lead?

No.

Which is what terser commentators mean when they say "impossible" or "no such thing".

And since the average sailor would have this interfacing done by a contractor, that just drove the cost up farther. Plus now he wonders about complexity. If it breaks at sea, can he fix it himself, without stress?



Obviously this makes sense in a car, where it is manufactured as a whole and you can call AAA, but this is going to limit aftermarket penetration quite a bit.

[zboss]

I was under the impression that you keep you starter battery as an AGM so if all of your BMS switch off the current just goes to the AGM. I suppose you could also have it go to a load dump.