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Old 19-11-2022, 12:43   #106
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
I agree about the mis-translation of what the skipper said. I'd imagine he used the equivalent of "burst into the salon", or said "exploded all over", trying to indicate the suddenness of the event. Not meaning that actual water exploded, at all.

Ann
Okay, I can see that happening… so the display of ignorance comes from the journalist instead of the skipper. No matter how one looks at this, it is a BS story one way or another. Unless we get a description of events that include time stamps and accurate observations, there’s nothing to tell. I can say his toilet exploded and it’s just as likely as his LA start battery or his lithium (what kind of lithium?) battery or his ballast. This is because it’s all just wild speculation, not based on anything reputable.
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Old 19-11-2022, 19:34   #107
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

The December/January 2023 edition of Professional Boat Builder arrived today. On the last page is the Parting Shot section and the topic is "Abusing LiFePo4 Batteries in ABYC's Test Kitchen." It is written by John Adley who is the president of the ABYC.

My summary of the article follows. It would be easier to cut and past but it is an actual magazine.

The ABYC technical department is running testing a variety of LiFePo4 batteries from high end marine specific batteries to less expensive batteries for unspecified applications. The batteries tested are all readily available to the public.

Testing included overcharging, undercharging, high temperatures, deep draw down, high and abrupt load, etc.

The marine specific batteries included elements required under ABYC's E-13 standard such as a a BMS and successfully handled the abusive tests. The BMS protected the batteries, wires and components.

They then started testing non compliant products in the same manner. They expected failures and and observed the tests from a safe distance. Nothing happened.

They did finally get a battery to smoke during an out of parameter test. The test was driving two 10 penny framing nails into the battery, which only smoked but did not catch fire. Not a documented accident as was noted.

There is a comment about drop in batteries causing problems, especially if they do not have a BMS, since the LiFePo4 batteries should be installed as a complete system.

They then burned up a boat as part of a arson investigation test. The batteries were placed very close to the "epicenter of the choreographed incident." The batteries did not add to the "conflagration."

They will be testing energized and non energized batteries submerged in salt water and maybe use a battery for target practice.

"Stand by for the next chapter."

Later,
Dan
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Old 20-11-2022, 02:44   #108
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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Originally Posted by dannc View Post
The December/January 2023 edition of Professional Boat Builder arrived today. On the last page is the Parting Shot section and the topic is "Abusing LiFePo4 Batteries in ABYC's Test Kitchen." It is written by John Adley who is the president of the ABYC.



My summary of the article follows. It would be easier to cut and past but it is an actual magazine.



The ABYC technical department is running testing a variety of LiFePo4 batteries from high end marine specific batteries to less expensive batteries for unspecified applications. The batteries tested are all readily available to the public.



Testing included overcharging, undercharging, high temperatures, deep draw down, high and abrupt load, etc.



The marine specific batteries included elements required under ABYC's E-13 standard such as a a BMS and successfully handled the abusive tests. The BMS protected the batteries, wires and components.



They then started testing non compliant products in the same manner. They expected failures and and observed the tests from a safe distance. Nothing happened.



They did finally get a battery to smoke during an out of parameter test. The test was driving two 10 penny framing nails into the battery, which only smoked but did not catch fire. Not a documented accident as was noted.



There is a comment about drop in batteries causing problems, especially if they do not have a BMS, since the LiFePo4 batteries should be installed as a complete system.



They then burned up a boat as part of a arson investigation test. The batteries were placed very close to the "epicenter of the choreographed incident." The batteries did not add to the "conflagration."



They will be testing energized and non energized batteries submerged in salt water and maybe use a battery for target practice.



"Stand by for the next chapter."



Later,

Dan


Perhaps they should have done that before releasing E-13. What a bunch of chancers
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Old 20-11-2022, 11:33   #109
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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Perhaps they should have done that before releasing E-13. What a bunch of chancers
With the timelines to publication and such, they may well have done the testing before the standard was released.

Later,
Dan
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Old 20-11-2022, 14:36   #110
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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With the timelines to publication and such, they may well have done the testing before the standard was released.



Later,

Dan


Well clearly they didn’t
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Old 21-11-2022, 06:30   #111
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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Having just ordered brand new LIFEPO4 batteries that are on the way now to replace my lead acid trusty Trojan T105s, I do not like this post.

Ha ha ha.


For what it’s worth, lead acid batteries can also explode, but not so much burn the boat down usually.

Would be very curious to know the battery chemistry. And what was blowing up.
All fiberglass / carbon fire boats burn once they get started. It could be many thing that actually started the fire. The amount of electronics on board these boats are massive.
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Old 21-11-2022, 06:37   #112
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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Let’s agree it’s a series of events happened over several days. Bank and electric gets shorted and he just continues sailing…-I see multiple big mistakes made and he can actually be lucky to be alive doesn‘t matter which battery chemistry was installed.
Kept sailing? He dropped out of the race. He had no electronics. He couldn’t start his motor. He was heading for shore. What could he have done better? I’d like to hear this one.
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Old 21-11-2022, 06:56   #113
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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Was it a LiIon battery from equipment or a LiFePo4 as main battery pack?

The latter ones are fairly save the first ones not.

Big difference in chemistry and safety.

Highly unlikely that a LiFePo4 bank explodes and catches fire.
Sounds like the explosion might have been something else. Perhaps initiated by something still smoldering.
The LiFePo4 can fail when a lot of water gets into it and it can give off a lot of heat, but the battery itself is unlikely to explode.
The latter ones are fairly save the first ones not./ Thats why Telsas are exploding in Florida after the batteries were exposed to salt water. Safe? not really.
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Old 21-11-2022, 07:57   #114
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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In some extreme cases the electrolyte can ignite.

Yeah, and i suppose if you pour first 10 liters of gasoline over it, it will burn even better
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Old 21-11-2022, 07:59   #115
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

My own reading is initially the seawater shirt Rex out the batteries and hr most power.

Some time later they exploded. Propsblu because sea water seeped in in the meantime.
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Old 21-11-2022, 12:30   #116
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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My own reading is initially the seawater shirt Rex out the batteries and hr most power.

Some time later they exploded. Propsblu because sea water seeped in in the meantime.
Do you ever consider proof reading your stuff before posting? I've found it helpful...

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Old 21-11-2022, 12:47   #117
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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Do you ever consider proof reading your stuff before posting? I've found it helpful...

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Old 21-11-2022, 13:30   #118
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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Well clearly they didn’t
Do you know the dates of when they did the testing and when they had to submit the article for publishing?

Later,
Dan
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Old 21-11-2022, 16:15   #119
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

The problem with thermal runaway with lithium is you can't put the fire out as they have their own oxygen supply. They will burn in space or on the moon. The electrics shutdown is a clue. Maybe a sudden burst of energy? Then a slow smouldering fire that never went out.
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Old 21-11-2022, 16:34   #120
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Re: Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

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The problem with thermal runaway with lithium is you can't put the fire out as they have their own oxygen supply. They will burn in space or on the moon. The electrics shutdown is a clue. Maybe a sudden burst of energy? Then a slow smouldering fire that never went out.


The FAA suggests cold water to pour on a flaming laptop in flight. It stops the cell to cell domino effect.
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