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Old 24-03-2023, 22:06   #1
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Bank Manager

Does anyone have the Bank Manager installed on their boat to parallel LFP and lead batteries. The concept seems sound, assuming the system is properly designed and has no software bugs.
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Old 25-03-2023, 05:17   #2
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Re: Bank Manager

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Originally Posted by mark.tuccillo View Post
Does anyone have the Bank Manager installed on their boat to parallel LFP and lead batteries. The concept seems sound, assuming the system is properly designed and has no software bugs.
Use search function, we discussed it some time ago. Common sense was you get worst from both worlds....
I though also first its a great idea but if you go into details you quickly see it makes only sense if you have a big healthy newish FLA house bank already running combined with non LFP compatible chargers like solar and shore and wanna add a smallish LFP approx 200AH to it for the occasional high power draws.
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Old 25-03-2023, 06:00   #3
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Re: Bank Manager

If you have a good FLA hybrid starter/house bank like many cats have from factory then have a look at x2 BMS. It combines a starter/backup lead battery or bank with a LFP bank and offers already the alternator/wind gen controller. They have now even a master/slave BMS combo where each battery pack has its own BMS and one of them is configured as master that cares about the whole bank.
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Old 04-04-2023, 02:01   #4
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Re: Bank Manager

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Does anyone have the Bank Manager installed on their boat to parallel LFP and lead batteries. The concept seems sound, assuming the system is properly designed and has no software bugs.
The concept is not only sound but also very smart and simple not to say elegant.

My take is that it will actually (from a systems view) improve the functionality of both Lead and LFP.

-Lead longer life due to lower depth of discharge but there as both a backup and protecting you from BMS shutdowns and killed alternator and electronic devices.

-Robust technique always assures that there is no voltage difference when connecting the different banks.
-A lot of options on how you can charge and use your new LFP batteries regarding the type of charge algorithm, to what DOD you want to discharge, and even an active selectable level if you want the LFP to be at around 50% SOC when you leave the boat.

I have not found any other system that also just lets you use all your "old existing infrastructure" regarding charging and basically is a smart add-on product that is easy to install.

If the claimed safest and smartest way to charge an LFP battery to 100% over time will prove to be true it will probably also in that dimension save you a ton of money getting more cycles from the LFP and avoid the risk of low current overcharging.

Personally, I will keep my big AGM bank for bow thruster, Anchor windlass, and the electrical furler. Add LFP to the existing lead house bank and when it is time to change the lead part go with the new Lead carbon batteries that promise a lot more cycles as well as not dying after even a 100% discharge.

Doing the math I prefer to buy more LFP capacity rather than to change the solar and shore chargers as well as to look into a new regulator for the alternator.

The inventor is a very accomplished engineer, and his way of dealing with the possibility of overheating the alternator is just as brilliant as his other inventions.
A small thermal switch controls the field current and switches off when the alternator is getting too hot.
I guess the only little thing is that you will have to see the charge lamp coming on from time to time if you want to charge your batteries at a "low rpm where the alternator is not able to cool enough ( not really the smartest way of using a big Diesel engine..)

Buy one before Victron or Mastervolt decides to offer the inventor a big chunk of cash so they can bury his invention and continue to sell us all the "needed" boxes at fantasy prices. I did see that changing my Mastervolt charger alone is either a new one at 1300 USD or buying an add-on box so this 24V 60 Amp shore charger can be used, then the MPPT controllers and then the alternator....

Well, the little thing even tells you the SOC of your new LFP on its small display.
If this would have been a product designed according to normal industry logic that would have been a small little "ad on" device for some 200 bucks for sure.

I guess you have also seen the DC Air conditioner he has made ..
an accomplishment that was too hard for the industry evidently!

I have bought 2, one for the boat and one for the adventure vehicle on land!
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Old 04-04-2023, 07:00   #5
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Re: Bank Manager

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Use search function, we discussed it some time ago. Common sense was you get worst from both worlds....
Could you please provide a link for your statement? I was unable to find anything (neither for "Bank Manager" nor "BankManager"). Thanks.
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Old 04-04-2023, 09:13   #6
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Re: Bank Manager

So I never understood the argument that LFP requires a massive overhaul of your electrical system. I have AGM, with typical "best practice" chargers. I have Victron MPPT controllers for most of my solar, a Victron Multiplus inverter charger, and a pair of externally regulated alternators with older Balmar regulators. I even have three very old Genison MPPT controllers that have no adjustability at all. I have no sophisticated network management system.

All the Victron and Balmar equipment can be adjusted to any charge voltage desired. But even leaving them at the AGM profile provides suitable charging for LFP. The Genasun charge controllers will go offline at about 85% state of charge (14.3V), so arguably not perfectly ideal for LFP. None will present any risk of damage to the LFP, and none are incompatible with LFP.

When I swap out my AGM for LFP, either this winter or next winter, I will replace approximately 0% of my existing auxiliary equipment, and spend approximately zero additional dollars on that equipment.

It is true that if you have a weak system on your boat already, with internally regulated alternators and truly dumb charging systems, you might need to upgrade. But you should have done that years ago even with lead batteries!
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Old 04-04-2023, 10:28   #7
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Re: Bank Manager

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So I never understood the argument that LFP requires a massive overhaul of your electrical system. I have AGM, with typical "best practice" chargers. I have Victron MPPT controllers for most of my solar, a Victron Multiplus inverter charger, and a pair of externally regulated alternators with older Balmar regulators. I even have three very old Genison MPPT controllers that have no adjustability at all. I have no sophisticated network management system.

All the Victron and Balmar equipment can be adjusted to any charge voltage desired. But even leaving them at the AGM profile provides suitable charging for LFP. The Genasun charge controllers will go offline at about 85% state of charge (14.3V), so arguably not perfectly ideal for LFP. None will present any risk of damage to the LFP, and none are incompatible with LFP.

When I swap out my AGM for LFP, either this winter or next winter, I will replace approximately 0% of my existing auxiliary equipment, and spend approximately zero additional dollars on that equipment.

It is true that if you have a weak system on your boat already, with internally regulated alternators and truly dumb charging systems, you might need to upgrade. But you should have done that years ago even with lead batteries!
Well it is your boat, your safety, and your decision on how to run your things.
Before going the route of just connecting your expensive LYP or slightly less expensive LFP batteries you might want to read all Eric has written on the subject:

https://nordkyndesign.com/charging-m...battery-banks/

He has gone the other route, deep research and understanding and fewer opinions without facts! But maybe it is due to his profession and understanding of what must be understood!

Even I with so far just basic understanding of the subject would say you most likely will read up on the subject or later try to understand why your new batteries lasted a shorter time than your present old-school all-lead...

Overcharging even the pretty safe LFP battery is in the worst case a potential smokey experience but you will probably be saved by a functional BMS that by the way most likely is a device designed to protect the battery from self-destruction but not necessarily from overcharge, the latter will just shorten its cycle life and giving you an experience of what it is to be without electricity on a boat for a shorter or longer period of time,

To the question of dumb or smart systems...well hard to say what is what without knowledge. Even a so-called smart system that is possible to program will be pretty dumb programmed by a person without knowledge!

And buying or using things without basic knowledge is not called smart in my book!
Mastervolt would probably be offended if anyone called my charger they have produced for Dum.. but when it comes to charging LFP batteries it is for sure just as dumb as their latest version.

And just as a side note charging Lead acid batteries is really not rocket science even if some manufacturers always manage to spellbind people that really do not understand the chemistry that a new device with a lot of diodes turning on and off in an 8-stage process is anything but a marketing gimmick!

Enjoy reading "Nordkyn´s" opinions, you will most likely get a lot of really good insights about most that are relevant for LFP batteries on a boat!
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Old 04-04-2023, 10:46   #8
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Re: Bank Manager

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Could you please provide a link for your statement? I was unable to find anything (neither for "Bank Manager" nor "BankManager"). Thanks.
I do not know if it is information on the so Bank Manager bbms system you are missing a link to, if so here you can find some more info:

https://www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
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Old 04-04-2023, 11:12   #9
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Re: Bank Manager

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If you have a good FLA hybrid starter/house bank like many cats have from factory then have a look at x2 BMS. It combines a starter/backup lead battery or bank with a LFP bank and offers already the alternator/wind gen controller. They have now even a master/slave BMS combo where each battery pack has its own BMS and one of them is configured as master that cares about the whole bank.
The Swedish-produced highly "industrialized" system called X2 that you are referring to looks nice. I have written them a lot of questions.

Looks like it is slightly different from the Bank Manager system, it is connecting the lead and lithium only when charging.
It also seems that it is designed for LYP batteries with a nominal voltage of 3.3V iso. LFP of 3.2V and I would guess that they also want to sell you their batteries.

They use a power resistor and a connect delay to protect the relays used since they are connecting the different chemistries when the voltage differs between the banks something that the Bank Manager never does.

In all honesty I do not think the systems are to be compared since they differ a lot in functionality and idea behind the concepts.

One is to optimize a true hybrid bank the other is more about how to change the boat to incorporate Lithium ( weather it is LFP or LYT) and keep the lead for some usages.
Both systems share the idea of using the "old" charging infrastructure in order to save costs.

The X2 has a sophisticated warning system that they state will allow you to dare to use more of your Lithium capacity well aware that you will get a fair warning before it shuts down.

The Bank manager really has less of a need for that warning and you will both have your lead part left preventing any alternator problems and also a constant check on the SOC on the device.

The Bank Manager allows the user to be in control and set a lot of parameters that probably will affect the service life of the LFP batteries on both the high and low end of the cycles.

So far it looks to me that the Bank Manager is actually far more capable as well as a bit cheaper and vastly less complicated.
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Old 04-04-2023, 13:37   #10
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Re: Bank Manager

This is a fast changing and interesting subject to follow. And Lithium will continue to gain traction and popularity. I am not ignorant in this topic but also far from an expert so I will keep my technical opinions to myself.

I know lots of people that are using "drop ins" successfully. But I also have not heard/read one industry "expert" agree it is the right way to do it. And their arguments are compelling. IMO.

Looking forward to reading and learning more.

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Old 04-04-2023, 14:51   #11
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Re: Bank Manager

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I do not know if it is information on the so Bank Manager bbms system you are missing a link to, if so here you can find some more info:

https://www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Thank you for the feedback and the link (which I'm familiar with). However I was specifically interested to learn/read more about the quoted statement "Use search function, we discussed it some time ago. Common sense was you get worst from both worlds....".

After watching emilyandclark videos and (much earlier, need to re-read) glancing over some nordkyndesign articles and also https://www.zwerfcat.nl/en/lithium-hybrid.html text, I very much doubt, that it would be the worst from both worlds... And thus would be interested to hear the arguments.
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Old 05-04-2023, 01:32   #12
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Re: Bank Manager

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Originally Posted by pietvdiemen View Post
Thank you for the feedback and the link (which I'm familiar with). However I was specifically interested to learn/read more about the quoted statement "Use search function, we discussed it some time ago. Common sense was you get worst from both worlds....".

After watching emilyandclark videos and (much earlier, need to re-read) glancing over some nordkyndesign articles and also https://www.zwerfcat.nl/en/lithium-hybrid.html text, I very much doubt, that it would be the worst from both worlds... And thus would be interested to hear the arguments.
Yes! (I was not quite sure what you did refer to.)

Totally get it after reading the older thread! I did not find any statement or post there either about the totally strange conclusion " worst from both worlds".

The opposite is of course correct, "the best from both battery techniques" where I believe it is not an overstatement to say it is a system where working together the old and new batteries are actually very much better when combined than each one stand-alone!

(Well extreme racing yachts will of course always look for a way to reduce every ounce of weight..)

In addition, it is also the cheapest safest, and smartest way of upgrading your boat in my opinion with the knowledge I have so far.

Of course, time will tell and my guess is that a lot of what is being installed and labeled "Lithium" today will have to be thrown overboard a couple of years from now.

New technology is funny in the way that even the brightest tend to take a few wrong turns initially, just look at Tesla, it must be a very expensive move to change to LFP.
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Old 06-04-2023, 01:37   #13
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Re: Bank Manager

This is another way of adding to an existing LA system - BOS LE300
Not sure how it compares cost wise. I have bought two but haven't fitted them yet.
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Old 06-04-2023, 02:15   #14
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Re: Bank Manager

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This is another way of adding to an existing LA system - BOS LE300
Not sure how it compares cost wise. I have bought two but haven't fitted them yet.
Frighteningly expensive for the capacity. However, if you don't need a large LFP battery, but just want something to manage the small frequent loads, perhaps.

Bolting a LFP to a lead acid battery does the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Kristian View Post
The opposite is of course correct, "the best from both battery techniques" where I believe it is not an overstatement to say it is a system where working together the old and new batteries are actually very much better when combined than each one stand-alone!
I would agree with that and our approach for the last two seasons.

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Originally Posted by Sos View Post
Of course, time will tell and my guess is that a lot of what is being installed and labeled "Lithium" today will have to be thrown overboard a couple of years from now.

New technology is funny in the way that even the brightest tend to take a few wrong turns initially, just look at Tesla, it must be a very expensive move to change to LFP.
Not sure about "a couple of years from now", perhaps in a decade if a better and cheaper battery technology actually makes it to market and becomes mainstream. Can't see anyone ripping out a perfectly good LFP bank because some liquid sodium battery is the new 'in thing' and half an ounce lighter.
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Old 06-04-2023, 08:07   #15
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Re: Bank Manager

Not sure about "a couple of years from now", perhaps in a decade if a better and cheaper battery technology actually makes it to market and becomes mainstream. Can't see anyone ripping out a perfectly good LFP bank because some liquid sodium battery is the new 'in thing' and half an ounce lighter.[/QUOTE]
I am not clear enough in my writing! Predicting things is at best hard and often very hard.
My thinking was actually not about a new "miracle" battery entering the stage and wiping existing things of the market.

What I was thinking was more about the fact that existing voltage-based charging equipment will in a few years' time start to show how it is affecting the service life of the LFP batteries.

Initially, the capacity and functionality of LFP batteries will not show that this way of charging might cause a much faster loss of capacity.

LFP and Lead seem to be at opposites, Lead dies fast from not being fully charged and LFP can not handle being fully charged without use (even worse slightly overcharged and hot..).

It is a lot of new things to learn and understand.

The very small and also very expensive German product "Smart batteries" looks like something sold by Hymer RV. I did look at them and concluded that it was a very expensive way of getting a very small amount of LFP capacity to work together with Lead in the boat.

Perhaps it is some RV logic I do not fully understand? For sure those things are likely always struggling to stay legal and not overloaded.

Must admit that my old Range Rover with an expedition roof rack and an Overlander tent probably is both overloaded in total weight as well as what you are allowed to put on the roof.
Adding a 100Ah LFP and the Bank Manager in that thing for once did make at least the total overweight thing slightly better since the earlier extra lead battery was substantially heavier.
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