"Evicted": Marina Won't Renew Contract for Next Year to maximize Profit

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I agree, that territorial waters and public lands are to be shared, but once a piece of waterfront and foreshore lease is privately purchased with government sanction it is no longer public.

True, but the public still retains an interest in maintaining and when possible enhancing public access to common "goods". So when a piece of shorefront comes up for redevelopment, it's not uncommon up here for the developer and the city/region to negotiate public spaces or facilities into the redevelopment.

Our yacht club is on landfill from construction and demolition. Industry got a convenient place to dump clean fill, the public got a new boat basin, a restored wetland, several km of new trails. There's an old industrial area to the west of us being developed into a waterfront community; it's going to have new common space, and canoe/kayak clubs that use the waterways from an old coal generator.

Why is that different to buying a home and making it a rental unit?

Depends where it is. Eminent domain is a thing.

We need landlords, but we don't want a mainly rentier economy, which is unproductive. And we must respect the right to own and control private property, but is this right absolute, particularly if it infringes on the rights of the public to access or use a common resource?

tl;dr: Is capitalism a means or an end?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by wingssail

S/V Illusion, as usual you apparently have a reading problem. I did not say "everything should be shared". Of course if you are trying to make your argument stronger, and lacking anything better to say, distort. Think that works? Not really.

What I said was that shorelines are a public resource and they are not simply treasure to be exploited by the rich. There are other public resources, like the airwaves, like bridges and roads, like schools systems, like public parks. Those things we all benefit from and share.

Other things we produce ourselves and those things we own, but we had a wise president who pointed out that we don't do it by ourselves. It takes a village. Your factory does not run without the power we all pitched in to provide. You don't have workers without the education system. You don't have roads on which your product can be be transported unless we as a community paid to have them built.

You may think it's all through your clever wonderfulness that you acquired the money to buy out that bit of shoreline you covet, but we all contributed to your success and we deserve to use the public resources as much as you do.

Let's do be clear on the fact that while a public park or beach is something that we all can benefit from and share, a municipal marina is not. It's a publicly supported space exclusively reserved for those wealthy enough in terms of money and free time to own and maintain a boat. In many places, the public isn't even allowed on the facility let alone allowed to hang out on the docks in this ostensibly "public" place their tax dollars helped pay for, and the public is certainly not allowed into the individual spaces where the actual boats of the fortunate few are parked. We need to be careful not to play the poor victim boat owner being trodden upon by "the rich" card when even the poorest of us is probably far better off than 75% of Americans. And yes, I include the retired folks who may not make a huge amount of money but have available immense amounts of time, which for many of us is a luxury worth far more than money.

At the point we decide that we have a right to exclusive use of a bit of shoreline for our boat, something that we could never reasonably grant to every American, we're behaving no differently from "the rich" who bought exclusive use of a bit of shoreline for their boat. Again, it will always be a limited resource and I don't think there is a good solution, but I do know a holier than thou mindset is not a good solution where we decry the exclusive access of "the rich" while demanding exclusive access of our own to a 40' X 20' piece of waterfront adjacent to a dock attached to waterfront property.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Let's do be clear on the fact that while a public park or beach is something that we all can benefit from and share, a municipal marina is not. It's a publicly supported space exclusively reserved for those wealthy enough in terms of money and free time to own and maintain a boat. In many places, the public isn't even allowed on the facility let alone allowed to hang out on the docks in this ostensibly "public" place their tax dollars helped pay for, and the public is certainly not allowed into the individual spaces where the actual boats of the fortunate few are parked.

This is true... but boat-owners are the public too, and many boaters are middle-class. Public marinas can support other uses, like sailing schools. Even more boaters, including canoes, kayaks, sailing dinghies etc are supported if there are launch ramps. One of our favourite Sunday bike rides is to a public marina which is adjacent to a waterfront trail, and has a nice little snack bar for toasted westerns and coffee.

At the point we decide that we have a right to exclusive use of a bit of shoreline for our boat, something that we could never reasonably grant to every American, we're behaving no differently from "the rich" who bought exclusive use of a bit of shoreline for their boat. Again, it will always be a limited resource and I don't think there is a good solution, but I do know a holier than thou mindset is not a good solution where we decry the exclusive access of "the rich" while demanding exclusive access of our own to a 40' X 20' piece of waterfront adjacent to a dock attached to waterfront property.

It's about balance, true. The CF crowd naturally think about their boats, but there's many other sizes and shapes of boats and boat users, many of modest means.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I agree with the above and am dismayed when municipalities rezone recreational land for commercial properties.

But I don't begrudge the buyer who legally develops a marina their success.

I thought there was more agreement here than it seemed. Thanks for the thoughtful response!

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Let's do be clear on the fact that while a public park or beach is something that we all can benefit from and share, a municipal marina is not...

But that can be said about literally any development. A municipal parking lot is only available to car owners. A campground, only to those who can pay the fee, buy a tent or camper and have enough of that valuable free time you mentioned. Hiking trails are of no value to citizens with limited mobility. I personally don't use the libraries, flower gardens, cemeteries, ball fields, beach houses, historic sites, or many other things my municipality spends my tax money on.

Likewise, some people don't use public beaches, waterfront restaurants, commercial fishing piers, educational facilities or other public-private facilities.

Yet I think we all recognize that these things have value to the community. Certainly the economic argument can be made. There are some immediate tax revenues and fees. But more importantly, the overall quality of life is a huge factor in attracting residents, visitors and businesses.

I'd say marinas are part of that mix. They are important to the community, and the community should exercise some oversight to ensure they remain viable for as large a segment of the population as possible. Leaving it all up to a huge corporation or a very small socio-economic class isn't likely to meet the community's needs.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Sounds like capitalism operating as designed.

********!

Capitalism is when you can buy the land next door, and build your OWN marina to undercut his prices.

What we have now does NOT resemble Capitalism in any way shape or form.

Marina prices are going up because of inelastic demand coupled with GOVERNMENT restrictions on building new ones, added to increased costs primarily to comply with ever increasing EPA mandates, and increased liability insurance costs to cover the increased fines from non compliance.

[Jake Tanley]

Originally Posted by Nokay

I'm quite shocked. Our marina here in the North East (Cape Cod/Buzzard's Bay) just informed us that they won't renew our contract for next year. We have been with them for two years.

After giving all sorts of vague reasons they finally admitted that they are a "Full Service Marina" and that they prefer customers that use all their services such as the yard, winter storage, detailing service (!) etc. I pressed the dockmaster quite a bit and I don't think he meant to admit this.

I do all my own work ... both because I am able to and because I enjoy doing it myself ... and we winter-store out boat with a yard that lets me go to the boat in the winter to do work on it. (Our marina won't even let us put our canvas cover on ourselves once it is out of the water.)

I'm just floored that they could and actually would do that. We're now scrambling because no marina currently knows if they have space next year. Quite a terrifying thought not to be able to get a marina slip next year.

Is it possible that the pandemic has created such a demand for slips that marinas can now profiteer from the situation and they try to upgrade to "full service" customers?!

Nokay, can you please share the name of the marina? I believe this is the first report I've heard in Buzzard's Bay, but we've seen it coming.


Several marina's closer to Boston have instituted similar policy's over the past 3-4 years - some precluding sailor's all together since they don't generate as much revenue as their power boat equivalent - both on/off season.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

There are plenty of anecdotes to show all circumstances. It is true however, that if you are rich today it is more likely you come from wealthy parents. This has been well studied in the economic literature.
.

UM NO.

MY parents were, and ARE today, DIRT poor.

MY MOM recently had to move in with my sister after losing the house, I expected would be paid off after making mortgage payments for 50+ years.

Constant refinancing, and other poor money choices kept her dead broke her entire life.

It took me a decade just to lose the poor mentality, and begin to make better life choices.

This wasn't the fault of "Capitalism", but I place some of the blame on criminally disastrous government controlled public education.

I started with only the clothes on my back at 16, and worked my way to a comfortable retirement by learning skills, and starting my OWN business under CAPITALISM.

This would be impossible under ANY other system.

Even a minimum wage worker in the US makes over one MILLION Dollars in their lifetime. How much of that you keep is up to YOU.

AND I would gladly build a marina, and rent out affordable slips to everyone on this forum if I could get permission from the Federal government, and State of Florida to do so.

[Pelagic]

[QUOTE=capn_billl;3485549]



I started with only the clothes on my back at 16, and worked my way to a comfortable retirement by learning skills, and starting my OWN business under CAPITALISM.



This would be impossible under ANY other system. QUOTE]

I hear what you're saying, but in reality it can be done easier in other systems if you are ruthless and corrupt enough to control monopolies, bribe governments and create sweatshop to make billions.

The Russian Oligarchs or Chinease Billionaires I've met in the Superyacht industry , had very humble beginnings, but clawed over others to succeed.

They are not people I would want to closely associate with.

[Trekka]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Wise decision Trekka as cost will only go up.

The only caveat is that the co-op Group continue to maintain the docks and property.

Yes, it is an issue that comes with self ownership. Couple yrs ago we replaced 3 floating docks. Was not cheap. We are looking at repairs and possible replacements of others in next few yrs. One will certainly be replaced in the next 2 or 3 yrs.

But whatever it costs us is less than we would be paying for if some investment group paid for it and raised our rates with a premium to recover costs. We set requirements, seek the bids, evaluate options. And assess as needed. We also ask ourselves whether to wait for a big assessment or have a small quarterly added now to ease the bite.

But we have a say. We make the final decisions. I cannot imagine being just a renter in another marina again.

Before coming here I rented from an owner in a small condo marina. I had a haulout and some work done. I was surprised at the bill - lower than I expected. I mentioned it and was told, “This is here as a service for ourselves. Why would we charge more? We charge enough for the expenses and a bit more.”

Who would want anything different? There are some that have excess money to spare and want the glitz and exclusion of lesser income folks. They can have that. But we have what we have, too.

[Chotu]

Reading through this whole thread this idea somehow escaped me.

This is the reality of it. WE are the rich when it comes to public access lands.

It’s an important thing to remember. People tolerate all our boats filling up harbors. Imagine if you allowed everyone to get an RV and fill up a National Park or a beautiful field. Imagine if we filled the whole horizon up at your favorite place to walk with RVs.

We have enough. Let’s not be just like those greedy people we are decrying in this thread. We already have spots in almost every single harbor that exists. And we’re complaining???

Our spots are, indeed, places the general public cannot make any use of.

Rob is 100% right here and we shouldn’t lose sight of this.

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Let's do be clear on the fact that while a public park or beach is something that we all can benefit from and share, a municipal marina is not. It's a publicly supported space exclusively reserved for those wealthy enough in terms of money and free time to own and maintain a boat. In many places, the public isn't even allowed on the facility let alone allowed to hang out on the docks in this ostensibly "public" place their tax dollars helped pay for, and the public is certainly not allowed into the individual spaces where the actual boats of the fortunate few are parked. We need to be careful not to play the poor victim boat owner being trodden upon by "the rich" card when even the poorest of us is probably far better off than 75% of Americans. And yes, I include the retired folks who may not make a huge amount of money but have available immense amounts of time, which for many of us is a luxury worth far more than money.

At the point we decide that we have a right to exclusive use of a bit of shoreline for our boat, something that we could never reasonably grant to every American, we're behaving no differently from "the rich" who bought exclusive use of a bit of shoreline for their boat. Again, it will always be a limited resource and I don't think there is a good solution, but I do know a holier than thou mindset is not a good solution where we decry the exclusive access of "the rich" while demanding exclusive access of our own to a 40' X 20' piece of waterfront adjacent to a dock attached to waterfront property.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

********!

Capitalism is when you can buy the land next door, and build your OWN marina to undercut his prices.

What we have now does NOT resemble Capitalism in any way shape or form.

Marina prices are going up because of inelastic demand coupled with GOVERNMENT restrictions on building new ones, added to increased costs primarily to comply with ever increasing EPA mandates, and increased liability insurance costs to cover the increased fines from non compliance.

Ah... blame the government. All functioning capitalist state operate under various forms of government control. There is no pure capitalist state out there.

Since god isn't making any more waterfront, it is a limited resource. Capitalism values this limited resource by the amount someone is willing to pay. If someone is willing to pay more for the resource, in this case a spot in the marina, then basic capitalist principles mean the higher-paying person wins.

As I said, it sounds like capitalism operating as designed.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

UM NO.

MY parents were, and ARE today, DIRT poor.

MY MOM recently had to move in with my sister after losing the house, I expected would be paid off after making mortgage payments for 50+ years.

Constant refinancing, and other poor money choices kept her dead broke her entire life.

It took me a decade just to lose the poor mentality, and begin to make better life choices.

This wasn't the fault of "Capitalism", but I place some of the blame on criminally disastrous government controlled public education.

I started with only the clothes on my back at 16, and worked my way to a comfortable retirement by learning skills, and starting my OWN business under CAPITALISM.

This would be impossible under ANY other system.

Even a minimum wage worker in the US makes over one MILLION Dollars in their lifetime. How much of that you keep is up to YOU.

AND I would gladly build a marina, and rent out affordable slips to everyone on this forum if I could get permission from the Federal government, and State of Florida to do so.

More anecdote and myth. Lovely stories to tell ourselves, but doesn't really say much about the broad reality.

[capn_billl]

The broad reality is YOU own a boat that 99% of the middle class in the US, and 99.9999999% of the world can never afford.

And yet you propose ending the system that gave you that opportunity.

My life is no "myth".

The broad reality is there are thousands of miles of Florida coastline that are not pristine beaches, and hundreds of miles away from the nearest marina, (or town).

Unless you are drawing a line of no more human life in these areas, I doubt a marina a few hundred yards across in a remote 50 mile stretch of coastal swampland, or rocky shore line several miles across will do much to disrupt the "natural beauty" these areas.

Building a new marina within 10 miles of Miami is another story, but that ship has sailed.

With the popularity, and number of Condos with attached marinas, You can't blame Condo development for the lack of slips as much as the State of Florida claiming ownership of all submerged property, and forbidding docks, and slips without a special exception that literally takes an act of Congress to get.

And YES, I blame government because SOME governments are small, and unobtrusive existing only to enforce contracts, Violence, and common defense, and OTHER governments claim ownership of most former State owned land in the Western United states, ALL wetlands, and coastal areas, riparian lands, rivers, streams, and other waterways, and restrict development to the select few who give b̶r̶i̶b̶e̶s̶ campaign donations to those in power.

[Mike OReilly]

Bill, I don't blame anyone, and I really don't know what you're on about. I don't think what is happening to the OP is any surprise, nor is it breaching his rights. It is capitalism operating as designed: to maximize profit through the control of a limited resource.

I really wish people would turn down the rage machine.

[capn_billl]

For the financially challenged.

$7.53 (current minimum wage in US) X 2080 (40 hours X 52 weeks, minimum hours to be full time) X 45 years (age 20 to 65) = $704,808.00

Investing $200 a month in a retirement fund over the same time period. = $553,954.51.

That gives even a minimum wage worker working the minimum number of hours $1.2 million dollars by retirement age if they live with their parents, or partner, and split expenses.

Which they can then add to Social security income.

THAT is reality, at least in the US.