"Evicted": Marina Won't Renew Contract for Next Year to maximize Profit

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I mostly object to the implication that everyone must work more than a 40 hour/5 day week, else they deserve to fail. Why are things backsliding for the average worker, instead of all boats raised by this ever-rising economic tide? Why does it take 2 salaries and daycare to raise a kid?

Needing a steady supply of desperate, determined, (and often undocumented) people fighting to get in, or else chickens won't get processed, broccoli picked, toilets cleaned... isn't that a moral hazard?

Who implied everyone must work a certain amount of time per week? I certainly didn't. Been part time since 2007. Of course, I don't complain that I can't get a 40ft slip in the Hamptons for $20/night and it's unfair.

Define things backsliding for the average worker? Who told you it takes 2 salaries to raise a kid? Much of it is expectations have changed.

Illegal aliens is again a 3rd rail separate from the current discussion...though they aren't "needed". They have simply been allowed to impact the market with spotty and inconsistent enforcement of the rules. Capitalism presumes a level playing field, so that clearly fails the test.

[Bycrick]

Of course it’s always a balancing act, ie negotiation, between competing interests. That’s the way politics works. What’s tiresome is listening to the people who didn’t get what they want talking about their rights and assuming that their good is equivalent to the common good.

When there’s “enough" of something to satisfy everyone, nobody worries much. It’s only when there’s a "shortage" of something that people start worrying that they haven’t got enough. The only ways of allocating a "scarce" resource is by by trading it for some other valuable resource (gold, labor, money, etc.) or rationing it by government fiat. And the losers are always going to complain that the system is unfair.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

The legal immigrants with much more difficult situations do it regularly.

The undocumented, even more so. But is it reasonable to recommend raising your kids in abject poverty, and/or surrounded by criminal violence, then telling them to get into another country by any means possible, living 10 to an apartment, working as many gig jobs as you can stay awake for (with or more usually without any protections or benefits).. as the standard model for self-improvement? I mean it's impressive what many immigrants accomplish from nothing, but does it scale?

Hmmm. Maybe rich countries should kick all citizens out after two generations, to make room for more immigrants.

Capitalism presumes a level playing field,

... but capitalists love having asymmetries to exploit. Like low-cost disposable labour.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by JAFO

Oh please.. this is yet another of those "myths of Capitalism" that Mike O'Reilly mentioned.


The myth is, equating owning a business, with Capitalism. The businesses and vendors in those ancient markets weren't Capitalists. They were merely businesses.

If they were Capitalists, the most successful of them would have used their "capital" to expand their business to be bigger than the others, and make use of economies of scale to drive down the competition, eventually putting said competition out of business, and/or buying them out.

But that kind of behaviour is not what we saw happen in ancient markets. Those with businesses were content to simply make a living, without feeling they had to become bigger and better than everyone else.

Just as it is today. Owners of a Mom & Pop store are not Capitalists. Not unless their aim is to use their capital in order to expand, open more stores, and maybe establish a franchise or something. Calling them Capitalists is a lie that Capitalists tell, in order to disguise the fact that what they do is, in fact, anti-social and anti-competition.

Freely operating business is definitely capitalism. The free nature of it means there will always be rising mom & pop businesses starting (and sometimes failing) and there is no requirement that once they are comfortable, that they continue to expand and try to dominate ever larger portions of the market.

But no one has operated a "pure" economic system...EVER. There are always limits on excess that come into play and those that attempt to subvert it for their own advantage. Venezuala is an example when you move toward (but not even then) a pure socialist system. Any system taken to the extreme will exhibit problems.

Unlike your implications, a variety of economic systems have been tried over the centuries:

In the middle ages, they had a form of socialism utilizing guilds. Guilds controlled who could practice in a particular field, what prices they could charge. If you were well placed within the guild, it was a great life as there was no pressure to compete. If you were on the outside, too bad. But even if you were in the Guild, you couldn't innovate and undercut the competition or the guild would censure or potentially black ball you.

You could argue the Feudal system was a form of socialism where the nobles were put in charge but held responsibility for protecting their serfs.

Then there were military systems such as Sparta which simply wandered off into weird and luckily short lived economic paths.

Some of the modern adaptations would have been difficult in ancient times, simply because there wasn't the technology to build one factory and ship products across the world. But even then, there are examples of businesses expanding and using economy of scale. There are Roman ruins where they have ganged multiple hammer mills together for mass processing mineral ore due to efficiency gains over having hundreds of slaves doing it manually. Testaccio neighborhood in Rome is built on a mountain of crushed mass produced amphora.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by JAFO

So umm.. in other words, they came up with a solution that is, at heart, socialist? Where the asset is jointly owned by those who use it? Where the only solution to rapacious capitalism, was socialism?

How... interesting. And how not-capitalist. Of course, I don't doubt they'll twist themselves into pretzels explaining why what they did isn't socialism.

Capitalism doesn't preclude going into partnership.

Socialism would presume everyone in the community would have equal access but in this case only those who put up the CAPITAL to buy the marina have access.

No pretzels required.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by JAFO

That's not how it ever worked. As any field anthropologist can tell you. The whole barter thing is (yet another) myth created by Capitalists. Barter only ever occurred in societies that had previously used money, but for whatever reason, money was now scarce.

In pre-money societies, if someone needed something you had sufficient of, you simply gave it to them. With no expectation of repayment. Because you knew that if you were ever in the situation of needing something, others would do the same for you.

Reading David Graeber's book Debt: The First 5000 Years, will clear up a lot of the misconceptions we have about how trade and money worked.

So they weren't trading...except there was an expectation that you gave because in the future they would give back.

If it walks like a duck...

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by JAFO

Strange.. there are millions of people in China, who started their own business from almost nothing, who would disagree strongly with this claim.

CINO: Communist In Name Only China?

Of course, they live under the threat that the party leaders could rescind the capitalist rules at any moment but so long as the capitalist rules are in place...what was your point?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

The undocumented, even more so. But is it reasonable to recommend raising your kids in abject poverty, and/or surrounded by criminal violence, then telling them to get into another country by any means possible, living 10 to an apartment, working as many gig jobs as you can stay awake for (with or more usually without any protections or benefits).. as the standard model for self-improvement? I mean it's impressive what many immigrants accomplish from nothing, but does it scale?

Hmmm. Maybe rich countries should kick all citizens out after two generations, to make room for more immigrants.

... but capitalists love having asymmetries to exploit. Like low-cost disposable labour.

We are moving off topic with illegal aliens...but while there are exceptions, they much more rarely move up into the upper middle class compared to legal immigrants. A lot of this comes down to them living in a legal gray area.

Capitalists don't love exploiting illegal aliens. It's the inconsistencies and in many cases socialist political positioning that allow the unscrupulous to abuse the situation. The Capitalists are cornered into the unfortunate position of participating or going bankrupt as they compete against the unscrupulous...really not that different from a socialist/communist leaders you see with mansions, staff and limos are not representing the true meaning of socialism/communism. Or are you going to claim N. Korea is run by a leader who is the pure embodiment of the textbook definition of communism?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

We are moving off topic with illegal aliens...but while there are exceptions, they much more rarely move up into the upper middle class compared to legal immigrants. A lot of this comes down to them living in a legal gray area.

I was mainly referring to your pointing at immigrants in general as reasons why things are A-OK with the American Dream. Let's be real for a moment. I'm pretty sure that neither you nor I are/were poor immigrants, or the children of same. I will dare to suggest that the vast majority of CF members aren't either. I have no reason to doubt that you possess above average drive and determination, and have worked hard for your success... but you didn't start from nothing, either.

The point is that those coming after us do not have it as easy as we did. So talking up the success of those who have fought their way out of much worse circumstances is beside the point. It's like yelling "Just jump higher!" as we pull up the ladder.

Capitalists don't love exploiting illegal aliens. It's the inconsistencies and in many cases socialist political positioning that allow the unscrupulous to abuse the situation. The Capitalists are cornered into the unfortunate position of participating or going bankrupt as they compete against the unscrupulous...

"socialist political positioning" LOL

SOMEBODY loves exploiting undocumented workers. If the government pursued better worker ID with half the zeal of some states who are pursuing voter ID to disenfranchise certain groups to prevent voter fraud , you'd end the employment of most illegals tomorrow. Except the ensuing US labour crisis would make post-brexit Britain's current labour shortage look like a cakewalk.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I was mainly referring to your pointing at immigrants in general as reasons why things are A-OK with the American Dream. Let's be real for a moment. I'm pretty sure that neither you nor I are/were poor immigrants, or the children of same. I will dare to suggest that the vast majority of CF members aren't either. I have no reason to doubt that you possess above average drive and determination, and have worked hard for your success... but you didn't start from nothing, either.

The point is that those coming after us do not have it as easy as we did. So talking up the success of those who have fought their way out of much worse circumstances is beside the point. It's like yelling "Just jump higher!" as we pull up the ladder.

"socialist political positioning" LOL

SOMEBODY loves exploiting undocumented workers. If the government pursued better worker ID with half the zeal of some states who are pursuing voter ID to disenfranchise certain groups to prevent voter fraud , you'd end the employment of most illegals tomorrow. Except the ensuing US labour crisis would make post-brexit Britain's current labour shortage look like a cakewalk.

Came from a below middle class family. Paid my own way thru college. Maybe not nothing but certainly no silver spoon. Only one parent left between the wife and I and so far inheritance has literally been a ball of twine, a roll of duct tape and a compound bow (can't make this stuff up). We don't expect anything from my wife's mom...so no big inheritance waiting in the wings.

What proof do you have that the ladder is being pulled up vs people are kneeling down and then complaining they can't jump higher. I've seen plenty of high expectations and low effort among the younger generation...those that put in the effort, I see doing very well.

I would love to see them require confirmation of worker IDs and heavy penalties for breaking them (employers included).

As far as it causing labor shortages, you are confusing a shock to the system with a long term issue. Sure if tomorrow, the agents showed up at every place of business checking ID and had a zero tolerance policy deporting any illegal aliens that day, it would cause a lot of problems...but that's about the shock of a large and sudden change. Given a little time, the markets would readjust. Prices and wages would adjust. If there really was a labor shortage, short term work visas could be issued with taxes collected and people getting paid fair wages and not abused because they are flying under the radar.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

What proof do you have that the ladder is being pulled up vs people are kneeling down and then complaining they can't jump higher.

There are many, but this one's a quick read.

“Boomers were the last generation to enter a job market offering living-wage blue-collar work. In Rust Belt towns, even in the mid-1960s, you could graduate high school straight into a factory job that would keep a nuclear family afloat,” Filipovic writes, citing the nationwide closures of factories and mines, the source of “America’s last well-paying blue-collar jobs,” as one cause for these job losses.

As a result, millennial earnings have plunged compared to previous generations. Adjusted to 2016 dollars, boomer households led by a male breadwinner averaged $56,100 in annual income in 1978, while comparable millennial households, at the same age, made just $49,500 in 2014. Overall, boomer households in this demographic were just $10,000 behind the national average, while millennial households in the same cohort were closer to $25,000 behind the average.

Another one.

A report by think tank New America found that millennials earn 20% less than boomers did at their age, and a MagnifyMoney study of Fed data found a $600,000 gap between the average net worth of millennials and boomers when they were millennials' age.

Hard to think we have the ideal economic system if it results in things getting worse for our kids, not better...

[MicHughV]

In my neck of the woods, area marina's have been bought up and converted into condo's with private slips. Though it's possible to rent a " private" slip from a condo owner, prices and length of stay are unpredictable.
The few remaining marina's have jacked their prices up considerably.
Liveaboards are discouraged at most marina's and most definitely at condo's.

From my perspective, I see fewer and fewer sailboats at marina's these days. Transient dockage has become outrageously expensive as has marine gas and diesel.

Anchoring restrictions are to be found all over the place.

I could not say where this is all headed. I used to see dozens and dozens of boats headed south each year, but these days it's rare to see even one boat headed south.

In the same breath, not so long ago condo prices were going up by the day. Now it's hard to sell one.

I can remember some years back when Florida instituted a so-called " luxury tax" on any boat over $100K. Almost overnight, the marine market collapsed. That law was eventually rescinded, but the damage was done. It took years for the marine market to regain it's footing.

It's a fine line between killing the goose that lays the golden egg or killing the goose.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

There are many, but this one's a quick read.

“Boomers were the last generation to enter a job market offering living-wage blue-collar work. In Rust Belt towns, even in the mid-1960s, you could graduate high school straight into a factory job that would keep a nuclear family afloat,” Filipovic writes, citing the nationwide closures of factories and mines, the source of “America’s last well-paying blue-collar jobs,” as one cause for these job losses.

As a result, millennial earnings have plunged compared to previous generations. Adjusted to 2016 dollars, boomer households led by a male breadwinner averaged $56,100 in annual income in 1978, while comparable millennial households, at the same age, made just $49,500 in 2014. Overall, boomer households in this demographic were just $10,000 behind the national average, while millennial households in the same cohort were closer to $25,000 behind the average.

Another one.

A report by think tank New America found that millennials earn 20% less than boomers did at their age, and a MagnifyMoney study of Fed data found a $600,000 gap between the average net worth of millennials and boomers when they were millennials' age.

Hard to think we have the ideal economic system if it results in things getting worse for our kids, not better...

Classic case of correlation is not causation.

So we just need to start WW3, so the post war economic boom can be replicated...great plan...NOT.

That time period was driven by capitalism, companies needed more workers than were available, so wages grew. By the 80's, things were settle back to a more realistic level.

Boomers are a bit before my time but I don't recall stories of them going to college for 8-10yrs in silly majors that had no job prospects.

Maybe we need to refocus high school and have them going to work rather than college, since that's what your article appears to propose as a good thing?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Sounds like capitalism operating as designed.

Im shocked! Capitalism at work in the USA?! [emoji6]

At least the OP was not in need of medical care!

[roryboy]

This is gentrification of the boating world in the USA. There are plenty of very well to do people that are waiting to take your place and willing to pay more and more often to the marina. You're out.

This is no different than what happens to poor people in poor urban areas that are being changed by wealthier people moving in to suck up the cheap housing. They start spending money, and typically displacing current inhabitants in the process.

The manager told you a harsh truth. If you can't or are unwilling to start spending more money, they don't want your business.

Lot's of small marinas are being bought up on the east coast by 2-4 corporations that will soon control the market.

Get ready to buy an RV. There use to be room in boating for those spending on the edge. Those days are numbered.