Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 03-05-2021, 08:15   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,199
Re: Buying a boat currently registered in BVI as US citizen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash_ofthe_lee View Post
So we don't plan to bring it back to the US, is registering in Delaware not an option? I was under the impression that you could with a registered agent.
As to registration of a vessel with a State of the USA: A vessel can only be registered with the State of principal use. If the boat is not kept in Delaware then is can not be validly registered with the State of Delaware.

Also, note that a vessel is not provided nationality under UNCLOS if it is only registered with a State of the USA, that is to say is not documented with the USCG. A State only registered vessel is not a USA flagged vessel, it is inappropriate for the vessel to wear the flag of the USA. Delaware is a State, it is not a nation state as to participation under UNCLOS. Only the Federal government has the authority to enter into international law covenants such as UNCLOS.
If you are a citizen of the USA, then I would suggest that you have the vessel documented with the USCG. There is no purpose to register a vessel with any State in which the vessel does not have situs and such registration would be invalid.

Enjoy your new to you boat. All the best.
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2021, 08:23   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,199
Re: Buying a boat currently registered in BVI as US citizen

FYI:

Delaware is a boat registration only state and does not issue boat titles.

In order to properly obtain a title to a vessel one has to surrender any previous titlings, this applies to USCG documented vessels and State titled vessels. There is only one valid titling, never two valid titlings.
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2021, 09:04   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,089
Re: Buying a boat currently registered in BVI as US citizen

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschmidt View Post
Do not also state register the boa if you USCG doc it, that will terminate your USCG documentation.
^^ This is incorrect ^^

You cannot TITLE a boat with a state if it is documented with the USCG. You can register a vessel with multiple states simultaneously AND be documented with the USCG.

Some states do not register USCG documented vessels while most actually do. Most require that ANY unflagged vessel , being operated within that states territorial waters beyond a certain length of time (depending on the state, it is either in a calendar year, or contiguous days of operating) must be registered.

If the OP never plans on returning to MD, then there is no point in registering in MD unless he is attempting to avoid paying state tax to some other state. If he plans to document with USCG and never stay in any one state long enough to register in that state, then he doesn't need to register in ANY state.
Shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2021, 17:54   #19
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Petersburg, AK
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 4,000
Re: Buying a boat currently registered in BVI as US citizen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanan View Post
...Also, note that a vessel is not provided nationality under UNCLOS if it is only registered with a State of the USA, that is to say is not documented with the USCG. A State only registered vessel is not a USA flagged vessel, it is inappropriate for the vessel to wear the flag of the USA. Delaware is a State, it is not a nation state as to participation under UNCLOS. Only the Federal government has the authority to enter into international law covenants such as UNCLOS....
I have seen this position presented many times, I would like to see a reference from law if you have one. Presenting the opposite position, 46USC ("Shipping") seems the most appropriate:

Quote:
46USC§116. Vessel of the United States
In this title, the term "vessel of the United States" means a vessel documented under chapter 121 of this title (or exempt from documentation under section 12102(c) of this title), numbered under chapter 123 of this title, or titled under the law of a State.
Note that in the same definitions "state" is defined to include US territories such as Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.

but there are many other similar definitions in other parts of federal law (and the fact that so many exist means that it's not 100% a settled matter under all titles):
Quote:
Section 2101(46) defines "vessel of the United States" as a vessel that is documented or numbered under the laws of the United States. A documented vessel and those vessels that are numbered by a State or Federal authority are afforded the protection of the laws of the United States
Quote:
9 CFR §783.38 Statutory definition of “American vessel”.
The provisions of section 6(b)(2) prescribe special methods for computing minimum wages and hours worked under the Act which are applicable only to seamen who are employed on American vessels. An “American vessel”, which would appear to signify a vessel of the United States as distinguished from a foreign vessel, “includes”, under the terms of the definition in section 3(p) of the Act, “any vessel which is documented or numbered under the laws of the United States.” The Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Customs and the United States Coast Guard, respectively, are responsible for documentation and numbering of vessels.

§783.41 “Numbered” vessel.
A vessel “numbered under the laws of the United States” means a vessel numbered pursuant to the provisions of Federal law, including vessels numbered under any State numbering system approved by the Secretary of the Department under which the U.S. Coast Guard is operating, in accordance with section 2(c) of the Federal Boating Act of 1958 (46 U.S.C. 527-527h). Generally, any vessel, which is not required to have and does not have, a valid marine document issued by the Bureau of Customs and is propelled by machinery of more than 10 horsepower, whether or not such machinery is the principal source of propulsion, is required to be numbered in conformity with the Federal Boating Act of 1958 if it uses the navigable waters of the United States, its Territories, or the District of Columbia, or is owned in a State and uses the high seas (46 U.S.C. 527(a)). The requirements and procedures of this Act are explained in detail in 46 CFR part 170.
Quote:
18USC§9.Vessel of the United States defined
The term “vessel of the United States”, as used in this title, means a vessel belonging in whole or in part to the United States, or any citizen thereof, or any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States, or of any State, Territory, District, or possession thereof.
Quote:
16USC§5502

(9) The term "vessel of the United States" means-

(A) a vessel documented under chapter 121 of title 46 or numbered in accordance with chapter 123 of title 46;

(B) a vessel owned in whole or part by-

(i) the United States or a territory, commonwealth, or possession of the United States;

(ii) a State or political subdivision thereof;

(iii) a citizen or national of the United States; or

(iv) a corporation created under the laws of the United States or any State, the District of Columbia, or any territory, commonwealth, or possession of the United States; unless the vessel has been granted the nationality of a foreign nation in accordance with article 92 of the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea and a claim of nationality or registry for the vessel is made by the master or individual in charge at the time of the enforcement action by an officer or employee of the United States authorized to enforce applicable provisions of the United States law; and

(C) a vessel that was once documented under the laws of the United States and, in violation of the laws of the United States, was either sold to a person not a citizen of the United States or placed under foreign registry or a foreign flag, whether or not the vessel has been granted the nationality of a foreign nation.
From a practical perspective, the USCG is authorized to board any vessel in US waters, and US vessels in international waters and in any other nation's waters where the USCG has an operating agreement. If a state-registered vessel is not a United States vessel in the legal sense then it would seem to follow that the USCG has no authority to board a state-registered vessel outside US waters?
Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2021, 05:36   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 5
Re: Buying a boat currently registered in BVI as US citizen

Hi All, I apologize for the delay, I believe I did mean titling rather than registration or perhaps both? If anyone could point me to helpful reading on this topic I would appreciate it. Thanks for everyone's replies, it's all very helpful information!

Some further clarification from me, we will be running a Charter company and the only place in the US we would intend to take/keep the boat to is the USVI. I believe we do have an option to keep the BVI registration(?) through the 3rd party company the Charter currently uses - they do not have their own registered business in BVI but this would require annual work permits etc.
Ash_ofthe_lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2021, 12:09   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,199
Re: Buying a boat currently registered in BVI as US citizen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash_ofthe_lee View Post
Hi All, I apologize for the delay, I believe I did mean titling rather than registration or perhaps both? If anyone could point me to helpful reading on this topic I would appreciate it. Thanks for everyone's replies, it's all very helpful information!

Some further clarification from me, we will be running a Charter company and the only place in the US we would intend to take/keep the boat to is the USVI. I believe we do have an option to keep the BVI registration(?) through the 3rd party company the Charter currently uses - they do not have their own registered business in BVI but this would require annual work permits etc.
A vessel's [or car’s title] is a document that establishes a recordation of the owner of a vessel [or vehicle] and provides for recordation of liens / mortgagees, while a vessel's [or car's] registration allows the car to be operated on public waterways [driven on public roads].

Note that titling is not proof of ownership, it is a public recordation of ownership.

In the USA, a vessel can be titled via a State agency, if the State is one of the titling States, or it can be titled by documenting the vessel with the USCG. One has to surrender a previous title to be able to obtain a new title, hence there is only one valid title, e.g., a Federal title with the USCG or a State title, but never both.

A vessel that is documented with the USCG may need to be registered with the State of Principal Use, but a boat that is documented by the USCG will not be required to display State registration numbers instead the vessel will display a valid registration sticker and will display its name and port of call. USCG documentation is a combination of Federal titling and registration and it avails flagging of the vessel.
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2021, 17:05   #22
Registered User
 
Sand crab's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Boat: 34' Crowther tri sold 16' Kayak now
Posts: 4,556
Re: Buying a boat currently registered in BVI as US citizen

Is the boat already in the USVI? In the 50 states chartering a boat requires a Jones act waiver if it is foreign built. It's just another hurdle to jump. But if it's already there then the waiver automatically transfers I think. However the USVIs have their own set of rules so the waiver might not be an issue.
__________________
We don't need no stinking badges.
Sand crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2021, 02:56   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 5
Re: Buying a boat currently registered in BVI as US citizen

Thank you so much, very helpful information!
Ash_ofthe_lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2021, 15:22   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,199
Re: Buying a boat currently registered in BVI as US citizen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash_ofthe_lee View Post
Hi All, I apologize for the delay, I believe I did mean titling rather than registration or perhaps both? If anyone could point me to helpful reading on this topic I would appreciate it. Thanks for everyone's replies, it's all very helpful information!

Some further clarification from me, we will be running a Charter company and the only place in the US we would intend to take/keep the boat to is the USVI. I believe we do have an option to keep the BVI registration(?) through the 3rd party company the Charter currently uses - they do not have their own registered business in BVI but this would require annual work permits etc.
As to the BVI and a chartering business.
Reference.
https://www.crewedyachtsbvi.com/requirements

Trade License

Just as if you were opening a shop, boutique or restaurant ashore somewhere, no one may operate a commercial recreational vessel in BVI waters without first obtaining a license.

You don't have to flag your vessel in the BVI to base here, but if you do decide to the following is a good link
http://boatregistrationbvi.com/#why_register_boat_bvi

If you are intending to be a BVI-based charter yacht, you will need to operate under a BVI Trade License. The following two options are available:

Apply for your own Crewed Charter Yacht license

Application forms can be obtained from and returned to the government’s Department of Trade, Investment, Promotion and Consumer Affairs office. http://www.bvi.gov.vg/departments/de...nsumer-affairs
It takes approximately 3 months for approval. You may choose to file on your own or use the services of an agent or lawyer to assist in the process.

Or operate under the Trade License of a recognized Clearinghouse/Charter Management Company in the BVI. Example: Regency Yacht Vacations or CharterPort / Southern Trades

Business trade Licenses are renewed annually in January

Link to Trade License Application Checklist:

http://www.bvi.gov.vg/sites/default/...%20Version.pdf

Yacht Certification

Small Commercial Vessel Certificate

In February 2004 the BVI passed the THE MERCHANT SHIPPING (SAFETY OF SMALL COMMERCIAL SAILING AND MOTOR VESSELS) REGULATIONS. Any vessel chartering in BVI waters, whether the yacht is BVI based or foreign-based, is expected to be compliant with the MCA Blue or Yellow Code, or the MGN280 which supersedes the former. The codes are concerned with the construction of a vessel, its machinery, equipment and stability, and the correct and safe operation of the vessel.

The “Blue Code” relates to passenger (non-cargo) sailing yachts less than 24 metres long and carrying 12 or less passengers.

The “Yellow Code” relates to passenger (non-cargo) power yachts less than 24 metres long carrying 12 or less passengers. The SCV (Small Commercial Vessels) Code for the Caribbean relates to commercial vessels which are cargo, and passenger vessels of less than 24 metres, carrying no more than 150 passengers.

The MGN280 can be found here https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-use-for-sport


If you are having your yacht surveyed and certified prior to arriving in the BVI, it is wise to check the following list of approved surveying authorities.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/min-538m...ng-authorities

Additional documents required include:

BVI Radio Station License
Operator’s License
Such licenses are obtained through Telecommunications Regulatory Commission located in Road Town.

Yacht License

Annual Recreational Commercial Vessel License


Once you have approval through the Trade Department, whether in the form of your own license or a management trade license, you proceed to Customs where you pay your Commercial Recreational Vessels License. This annual license is due for renewal on the 1st of November each year. The cost is dependent on the size of vessel and ranges from $400 - $800. Mark the above date on your calendar. Missing payment can cost you $5,000.

Additional Licenses:

Non BVI based yachts pay this license on a per charter basis upon entrance into the Territory. Again, depending on the size of the yacht the fee will cost betweeen $35 and $45.
A yacht must have a Cruising Permit for their party when on charter. It is a “per person per day” tax payable to customs. BVI Based: $6 pp/pday and Non BVI Based: $16 pp/pday
If you are going to pick up National Park Mooring Buoys during the charter, you must have a National Parks Trust permit. Annual or per charter permits are available. Pricing is based on capacity and whether the yacht is locally based or foreign based.
If fishing is offered on a yacht (whether it is with rental gear, personal gear or the yacht's gear), a fishing registration number is required for the yacht and every person wanting to fish must have a fishing license.

Crew Members
The Skipper


Aside from the requirements of having to enjoy hosting people, being outgoing and possessing great élan, the standard building blocks of a great charter captain, the marine safety code requires all BVI-based skippers to hold a VISR recognized captains license with STCW certification.

The 1st Mate/Chef

The first mate/chef should also be hospitable, and very flexible. Formal culinary qualifications are certainly an asset. All crew working on a crewed yacht based in the BVI are required to have completed the STCW basic qualifications course.

Work Permits

In order to work in the BVI as crew of charter vessels (i.e., allowed to do limitless charter pick ups), crew (non BVI citizens) must hold BVI work permits. The order of things is first the Trade License, and then comes the work permits. This order only differs if one chooses to operate under the trade license of a yacht management company. Work permit applications are obtained from and returned to the Labour Department.

The process seems daunting, but it’s no different from what non-citizens go through to enter the US or the UK to work legally. The name(s) on the trade license is the employer; therefore if you are the holder of the trade license you require a Self-Employed work permit whereas an Employee Permit is required for hired crew. Upon approval, permission is granted to enter the territory. Immigration status is then granted and the charter vessel becomes a viable BVI-based operation.

Work permits can cost about $1000 - $1200 each and must be renewed annually. A cash bond of $1000 - $3000 (dependent on country of citizenship) per person must be posted. The bond will be returned upon departure from the territory.
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2021, 04:45   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 5
Re: Buying a boat currently registered in BVI as US citizen

Thanks for the information!
Ash_ofthe_lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
buying, current, boat, BVI, buying a boat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boat loans for a US citizen/non-citizen couple Tenedos Dollars & Cents 16 15-12-2020 11:37
Non US citizen - state registered boat - unflagged and no nationality - a good idea? miraculix Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 54 02-06-2020 11:48
US citizen/resident & EU citizen buying EU boat boom23 Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 42 03-04-2020 05:20
French Citizen, Permanent resident in Canada buying a french registered boat in US RobinBC Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 33 07-03-2019 22:18
Au Citizen owning international registered boat Geoff409 Boat Ownership & Making a Living 11 24-09-2012 08:34

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:21.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.