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19-02-2022, 18:37
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#106
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: NZL - Currently Run Aground Ashore..
Boat: Sail & Power for over 35 years, experience cruising the Eastern Caribbean, Western Med, and more
Posts: 2,129
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3
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I don't know about @Dockhead, but that is exactly what Russia claims at times. Russia has stated this openly and clearly.
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19-02-2022, 18:46
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#107
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,955
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
Listen to Victoria Nuland, in the linked tape, musing over who the U.S. State Deparment is choosing for the new Ukrainian cabinet, and then take those words back. I think you may not be aware of what went down in 2013-2014. We spent $5 billion (again, admitted by Nuland) to overthrow the Ukrainian government. There is no paranoia at all.
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The U.S. State Department doesn't choose the Ukrainian cabinet. While I hear some loose diplomatic talk there, I didn't hear proof of the allegation you're making in the comments from that video.
While the U.S. and Russia both provide aid to other countries, that doesn't justify the other mounting an armed invasion.
Russia is getting ready to kill a lot of people. It has very little to do with security and more to do with ambition.
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19-02-2022, 18:50
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#108
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,955
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002
I don't know about @Dockhead, but that is exactly what Russia claims at times. Russia has stated this openly and clearly.
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I feel certain Russia makes that claim. They want a puppet government that reports to Putin in there.
But if the government there weren't duly elected by the people there, that's still a UN problem to solve, not Russia's.
Russia can make their case at the U.N. But their credibility isn't that great.
They're still maintaining that they have no intention of invading. You and I both know that this is B.S.
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19-02-2022, 18:53
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#109
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,955
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002
So for some it remains a great tragedy that the cradle of Russian history, religion, and civilisation, from 1000 years and more ago, was created in what is now another country, remains in what is now another country, outside Russia, outside direct Russian influence, and is in fact looking further and further away from Russia as time passes. Amongst some this is considered a great wrong that must be righted, at any and all costs.
Looking back at the great wars in history, those facts alone should not be underestimated as reasons to start and continue yet another one.
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Now you're getting to what seems to be the real motivation here.
Putin wants a legacy.
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19-02-2022, 19:10
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#110
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: NZL - Currently Run Aground Ashore..
Boat: Sail & Power for over 35 years, experience cruising the Eastern Caribbean, Western Med, and more
Posts: 2,129
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3
Now you're getting to what seems to be the real motivation here.
Putin wants a legacy.
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I think it's bigger than that, not only about a personal legacy for President Putin, but about the legacy of Russia's history, religion, and civilisation.
I believe that President Putin truly thinks what he is doing is right, and righting certain wrongs, for both the past and the future of his country.
In this context it is perhaps understandable, even if at the same time it is not agreeable.
I don't think that this is just some personal 'ego trip' - it's far greater than that.
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19-02-2022, 19:19
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#111
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,955
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002
I think it's bigger than that, not only about a personal legacy for President Putin, but about the legacy of Russia's history, religion, and civilisation.
I believe that President Putin truly thinks what he is doing is right, and righting certain wrongs, for both the past and the future of his country.
In this context it is perhaps understandable, even if at the same time it is not agreeable.
I don't think that this is just some personal 'ego trip' - it's far greater than that.
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No, there is no "far greater than that". We've seen autocrats make that claim over the centuries, and it always comes down to personal ego. "Righting wrongs" is generally a bad motivation. Wrongs can only be righted by choosing a better path. That path is not creating war.
Modern thinking is more about the human condition and all of us being in this together, not about wanting future historians realizing how great we were.
If you're doing things so that you'll be praised by historians, you're probably going down a bad path.
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19-02-2022, 19:28
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#112
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,604
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgeworth
I was thinking about crossing from North America and cruising the Mediterranean this spring. I imagine a war in Ukraine would negatively affect the security situation in the Black Sea. Indeed it sounds like it already has to a certain extent.
What do those there now think the chances are that the chaos might spill over to the Eastern med?
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Funny, I started a thread about this topic a month ago. The title of the thread was changed and then it was closed. I don’t think I am allowed to say anything about what or why or who.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ns-260091.html
I’ll let you guess.
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19-02-2022, 19:53
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#113
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cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 94
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3
No, there is no "far greater than that". We've seen autocrats make that claim over the centuries, and it always comes down to personal ego. "Righting wrongs" is generally a bad motivation. Wrongs can only be righted by choosing a better path. That path is not creating war.
Modern thinking is more about the human condition and all of us being in this together, not about wanting future historians realizing how great we were.
If you're doing things so that you'll be praised by historians, you're probably going down a bad path.
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A potential war in Ukraine doesn’t seem particularly popular among the Russian people. I don’t hear them clamoring for the righting of some thousand year old wrong. Or even a 10 year old one. But what do I know. I’ve never been there and certainly don’t understand the culture.
Still in reading about the conflict, admittedly only in English, it doesn’t seem like this is the desire of a nation, but rather the choice of a single aging oligarch.
Am I right in thinking that within the Russian system Putin is the final and only decider of whether or not they invade? It’s not like he has to check with anyone right?
He seems like the straight up product of the old Soviet system—a system he longs to restore before he shuffles off this mortal coil.
Either way, I don’t have to decide until May about the crossing. And the future is a big place and a moving target.
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19-02-2022, 20:22
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#114
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cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 94
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgeworth
A potential war in Ukraine doesn’t seem particularly popular among the Russian people. I don’t hear them clamoring for the righting of some thousand year old wrong. Or even a 10 year old one. But what do I know. I’ve never been there and certainly don’t understand the culture.
Still in reading about the conflict, admittedly only in English, it doesn’t seem like this is the desire of a nation, but rather the choice of a single aging oligarch.
Am I right in thinking that within the Russian system Putin is the final and only decider of whether or not they invade? It’s not like he has to check with anyone right?
He seems like the straight up product of the old Soviet system—a system he longs to restore before he shuffles off this mortal coil.
Either way, I don’t have to decide until May about the crossing. And the future is a big place and a moving target.
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Also, if Russia invades but gets caught doping again, do they have to give back Crimea? What’s the rule there? It’s all very confusing
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19-02-2022, 20:23
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#115
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: NZL - Currently Run Aground Ashore..
Boat: Sail & Power for over 35 years, experience cruising the Eastern Caribbean, Western Med, and more
Posts: 2,129
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
Novogorod -- Kievan Rus -- Muscovy is a continuum. There is no Ukraine in that -- this is the history of Russia, of which Ukraine was just a part for the best part of a millenium.
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I don't think that is entirely reasonable. If there is 'no Ukraine' in that, then there is 'no Russia' in that either.
Neither existed at the time of Kievan Rus, so surely this is the history of both, or the history of neither?
Novgorod is part of Russia's history, but is not part of Ukraine's ??
Kievan Rus is part of Ukraine's history, but is not part of Russia's ??
(or as some would like to say, it's not part of Ukraine's history either...)
No, none of this is so easily black and white. And if we are trying to answer the question of 'who came first' should we go back even further and say that all these lands were Swedish?
Well that's not correct either as the modern day lands of Ukraine and the surrounding area were already settled, and the Viking Princes arrived later. So it's not simplistic and there is a shared and connected history, sometimes broken and sometimes joined.
But what is clear, as @Island Time O25 alluded to in a previous post, is that the state of Kievan Rus, regardless of it's roots, developed to be a great power when it was located and ruled over in what is now modern day Kiev, in modern day Ukraine.
So if there is a continuum that ends in the creation of the great power of what is now known as Russia, then that great power was established as Kievan Rus in what is now known as Ukraine.
It's even named after that - "Kievan Rus" (it's not 'Novgorod Rus'...) and was declared the "Mother of Rus cities" by Prince Oleg in 882 - hence why Ukraine is referred to as 'the Motherland'...
(As a city Kiev dates back to the 5th century, whereas Novgorod was first mentioned in the 9th century...)
Novgorod was the lesser town of the state of Kievan Rus - not the other way around.
And Novgorod was normally where the younger, the lesser, the illegitimate sons/princes of the realm were sent.
Some might say banished, but given that they often came back to rule in Kiev I like to think that this was done on purpose, to 'toughen them up' for the role that they would need to fill one day in the great capital.
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19-02-2022, 20:35
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#116
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: NZL - Currently Run Aground Ashore..
Boat: Sail & Power for over 35 years, experience cruising the Eastern Caribbean, Western Med, and more
Posts: 2,129
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
Novgorod was never conquered by the Mongols. Moscow was.
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My understanding is that Novgorod was not conquered by the Mongols 'militarily' because Alexander Nevsky agreed/forced the city to pay tribute and become a vassal of the Golden Horde to prevent this.
The other cities attempted to fight, so they were sacked and destroyed.
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19-02-2022, 20:49
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#117
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,051
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
And contrarily to official Russian historiography Alexander Nevsky was not as much "the defender of Rus lands" as the tribute collector/enforcer for the Mongols. And his fight against the Teutonic Knights was part of his service for the Mongols.
Also, not apparent to non Russian speakers, the English word "Russian" has two specifically different adjectives in Russian language. One is "russkiy" meaning pertaining to Russian ethnicity and the other "rossiyskiy" meaning "of Russia or of Russian Federation", regardless of ethnicity. That difference always gets lost in translation. Especially when it comes to politics. But it is very important nonetheless.
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19-02-2022, 21:26
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#118
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: NZL - Currently Run Aground Ashore..
Boat: Sail & Power for over 35 years, experience cruising the Eastern Caribbean, Western Med, and more
Posts: 2,129
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Time O25
And contrarily to official Russian historiography Alexander Nevsky was not as much "the defender of Rus lands" as the tribute collector/enforcer for the Mongols. And his fight against the Teutonic Knights was part of his service for the Mongols.
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Exactly. This may have simply been pragmatic by Nevsky of course, ie: 'if you can't beat them then join them' type of thinking.
He saw what happened to the other cities and understood that Novgorod would be next if they chose to fight and that perhaps it was better to make an ally of the Mongols instead.
I suppose it's fair to say that some Rus lands and traditions were preserved by Nevsky's thinking, since the payment of tribute was more important to the Mongols than a city's beliefs or religion.
Although not everyone agreed of course, and felt it was more about Nevsky's self preservation, and self promotion, and self enrichment...
Not much has changed in 1000 years it seems!
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20-02-2022, 01:55
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#119
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3
2014 was a long time ago. To be honest, I don't know that history in detail enough to know if your accusation is valid or not. But even if valid, it's not justification for a Russian invasion today. Are you suggesting that the current government in the Ukraine is illegitimate? Because anything short of that makes Russia wrong here. Even if the government were illegitimate, that's a UN problem to solve, not Russia.
Russia being unhappy that they aren't able to install a puppet government in the Ukraine is NOT justification for a military invasion that will kill a lot of people.
Are you accusing the U.S. of installing missiles in the Ukraine? That's what happened during the Cuban missile crisis. Kennedy responded correctly. That would have been a defacto declaration of war. That's not an apt comparison for what is happening in the Ukraine today.
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I see simply installing said missiles in Poland and Romania is some how ok then
The US acts in its own interests 100% of the time , it acted unilaterally to blockcade cuba , since when is merely siting missiles an act of war. If it was the US has declared war about 50 times so far.
The situation is entirely comparable , the US regarded hostile missiles that close to its borders that it felt it must unilaterally act ( and it received much international criticism ). Russia feels the same about the “ westernisation “ of Ukraine and the attempts to choose militarily which side it’s on. Russia will not accept NATO on its immediate border, just as the US would not accept missiles on its borders
The west can deflate tensions by offering Russia guarantees its will not maneouveur the Ukraine into any western military alliances , this is the core of what Russia is demanding. I see it as a reasonable request given the encirclement of Russia. It’s no more then the US demanded in Cuba.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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20-02-2022, 02:56
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#120
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: UK, Australia, Europe
Boat: Custom Catamaran
Posts: 884
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3
Russia being unhappy that they aren't able to install a puppet government in the Ukraine is NOT justification for a military invasion that will kill a lot of people.
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Isn’t that America’s justification for starting SO many wars over the recent past?
The hypocrisy coming out of the “leaders of the free world” (which in itself is a title slathered in arrogance) is astonishing.
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