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Old 24-02-2022, 12:01   #751
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

US Intel agencies offered Biden the options to carry out a large-scale cyber attack against Russian targets including cutting off internet access, cutting off electricity, tempering with railway switches - NBC
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:06   #752
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

Russian paratroopers have seized the Antonov airport near the village of Gostomel, which is located 25 kilometers from Kiev and are trying to establish an 'air bridge'.

Russia suffered losses including helicopters by Ukrainian defence forces and are expecting a further counter attack by Ukrainian forces.
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:15   #753
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Just watched Biden's press conference on the Mother of all Sanctions.. not impressed.
He spent most of the Q&A evading and laughing.
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:17   #754
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

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US Intel agencies offered Biden the options to carry out a large-scale cyber attack against Russian targets including cutting off internet access, cutting off electricity, tempering with railway switches - NBC

I wouldn't rush towards that. I'd roll that out in the coming weeks, intermittently.

What they need to hit quickly is cutting off funds for Russian elites. They're benefitting from the system that's creating this. I'd like to better understand how this works, but they should be laying the hammer down there.

Another option would be to cut Russia off from SWIFT payments. Europe is currently balking on this, but this is where sanctions could be effective.
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:23   #755
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

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He's going to feel the heat from this forever.
hes not , no more then there were consequences for other extra territorial adventures, the sanctions will have little real effect
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:24   #756
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

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I wouldn't rush towards that. I'd roll that out in the coming weeks, intermittently.

What they need to hit quickly is cutting off funds for Russian elites. They're benefitting from the system that's creating this.

Also, Europe and the US need to cut Russia off from SWIFT payments. Europe is currently balking on this, but this is where sanctions could be effective.
The Russian elites will already have a plan and will have alternative funds. Day to day this won't hurt them right now, and Putin won't listen to their complaints at this stage anyway.

Asymmetric attacks inside Russia will be felt immediately though.
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:27   #757
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

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Asymmetric attacks inside Russia will be felt immediately though.

I agree with that.


I'd just spread it out and make it unpredictable over the coming weeks.
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:28   #758
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

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hes not , no more then there were consequences for other extra territorial adventures, the sanctions will have little real effect

We disagree on this.

I think Putin crossed a red line here.
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:28   #759
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

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Zelensky is Jewish. Grossman (Prime Minister of Ukraine when Zelensky was elected) was Jewish. 8 million Ukrainians died during WW2 - the highest percentage of any country other than Poland.
Your comment is pure Putin propaganda
My comment is a historical fact. The details were posted above.

And what possible relevance does Zelensky's Jewishness have? Zelensky was elected in 2019. The coup was six years earlier, in 2013. To the credit of the Ukrainian people, they voted out of office the government with the neo-Nazis in it in 2019. Zelensky is a good man and I've been rooting for him since 2019. Unfortunately he has an impossible job, which I think will be over as early as tomorrow.

And for the millionth and tenth time, none of what happened in 2013 justifies the barbaric, unprovoked military invasion of the country which started today. It is part of the whole picture of the background of it.

A lot of people are not interested in the details or the rather complicated background. They just want to be angry, and don't want to be bothered by any nuances, and get irritated if someone disturbs their angriness.

Sorry for that! But if all you want is to feel angry and hate the bad guys and feel like a good guy -- maybe better watch an old cowboy movie, than the news?
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:31   #760
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

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The Russian elites will already have a plan and will have alternative funds. Day to day this won't hurt them right now, and Putin won't listen to their complaints at this stage anyway.

At this point, it should be a consequence of actions they already took.

Wealthy Russians are benefiting from this system. Even if it's painful not to accept their business, we should refuse it.

I hope there's a plan for this, they need to execute it.

This needs to be more than lip service.
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:42   #761
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

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A lot of people are not interested in the details or the rather complicated background. They just want to be angry, and don't want to be bothered by any nuances, and get irritated if someone disturbs their angriness.

Details, fine. Propaganda, not so much. You've blended in unsourced opinion with your facts. It may be a deeply-held conviction for you, but it's false, nonetheless.

This is what Vladamir Putin excels in. Justifying his actions with falsehoods. They may have just enough truth to be believable at times.

Enough with the "He's completely unjustified, but he's got a valid point" nonsense.

There is no justification for this invasion. This is Putin playing geopolitics. He deserves the condemnation that he's getting, and the responsibility lies solely with him.
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:50   #762
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

I see DH is still drawing some heat from a few posters.

I don't believe this is warranted at this point.

Either way.

I have taken some time to actually sit down and look at this as dispassionate as possible (as well as reread the thread) taking history into account, which is crucial to better understand the present and how it got us to where we are.

This is the region where Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm II and Germany during National Socialist rule invaded, and controlling it is of existential importance for them, which means that a NATO friendly government in Ukraine would be perceived as a direct existential threat to Russia, real or perceived one is up for debate of course.

When you take the above factors into account and add NATO expansion eastward, then compare that to our own invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, I struggle with finding anything that would explain our own actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

No.
I am not condoning Russia. Not at all.
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Old 24-02-2022, 12:52   #763
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

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By cynically pretending to offer what they never intended to give, for the purpose of stirring up the Russians.


For interfering in the internal affairs of Ukraine and organizing a coup which removed a democratically elected pro-Russian president and installed a hostile anti-Russian government full of neo-Nazis.


And for the 1000000th time, that does NOT justify the barbaric violent actions Putin is doing in Ukraine now. Nothing justifies the unproked and criminal attack on Ukraine. Which is as unjustifiable and criminal as our unprovoked attack on Iraq. But if we want to prevent these things from happening, if we want to have the ability to negotiate out of such situations, we MUST understand the motives of the other side, and we MUST look in the mirror and see what we ourselves have done to contribute to the situation. Once we turn it into a Star Wars cartoon of perfect good against absolute evil it becomes impossible to understand anything or solve anything -- war is inevitable, between people who think like that.
I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I believe from reading this thread that the Ukrainian citizens never naively believed they would become part of NATO anytime in the next half century. They might have hope of joining the EU or at least joining in trade agreements with the EU and other western countries. The current government was democratically elected.

I do not believe that the current government is full of neo-nazi as you proclaim. If so please inform me with names and documentation of those proclivities. The previous interim government was perhaps guilty of that, but I argue that the current government is not. As from what I have read neo-nazis in America have and are training in eastern Ukraine on the side of Russia. Russia has enabled such influences in Ukraine and other counties to destabilize democracy. They use nazi influence to undermine democracy. Their end game is defeating democratic nations, not defending against any theoretical or religious deference to Jewish population or any other population. Putin just wants power. And he will use any populists thinking to achieve that. He is not picky. He will side to any means to an end.
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Old 24-02-2022, 13:04   #764
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Re: War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

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When you take the above factors into account and add NATO expansion eastward, then compare that to our own invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, I struggle with finding anything that would explain our own actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
These are apples and oranges comparisons.

Is the U.S. currently occupying Iraq or Afghanistan? The expressed hopes in both situations was to eliminate potential terrorist threats to the U.S. and Europe. No threat, no invasion. Both countries have an independent government. The U.S. didn't steal the oil in Iraq. If anything, the U.S. invested billions in both places, and tried to make them a better place. I think we can debate the wisdom of these choices, but they in no way justify what Putin is doing in Ukraine. The circumstances aren't remotely similar.

Ukraine already has a democratically-elected government. The citizens chose it. Is having a government that's friendly with the West, as chosen by the people, so much of a threat to Russia militarily? Over and above NATO presence in all the surrounding countries? If anything, the NATO presence in the surrounding countries will now increase.

It's not like Ukraine was going to join NATO in the middle of next week. I can understand pushing hard for a diplomatic solution, but invading Ukraine is beyond the pale.
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