War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

[imus]

I think the plan is pretty clear. As Putin said "demilitarize" Ukraine first (ie invade, destroy military resistance, and conquer). Then install an pro-russian/allied/puppet government of their choosing, and make Ukraine a de facto vassal state of Russia with all that entails.

That way, no long term occupation required, controllable allied government forever (because Russia keeps them in power just like Belarus). Ukraine in name only after that with the purported "genocide" stopped and an advantageous outcome for Russia. See, we didn't take over Ukraine, we just put a stop to the atrocities that were being committed by the old regime. A humanitarian peacekeeping mission.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Ukraine cannot hold out for too long in a conventional battle. it will quickly become an insurgency . Ukraine has no capability to counter Russia's military in a conventional way . This is simply a fact or numbers and technology

I don't think there is any real conventional battle happening except in Donbas.

It's why you see some 'easy wins' with Russia entering some areas and only facing light or no resistance.

Ukraine is already adopting the 'hit and run' strategy. It's their only hope.

'Javelins are working'

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by hedgeworth

Countries can prohibit trade with other countries. Russia is a net importer of food. They export a lot of oil.

It would not be good for any Westerners who currently have business interests in Russia, but it is not unheard of for the United States to prohibit trade with various nations. We certainly do it all the time with technology.

Well Putin and Xi just signed a 30 year deal for oil and gas.. so to be honest I reckon any demands from the West to cancel this will just result in the 'Finger'

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I don't think there is any real conventional battle happening except in Donbas.

It's why you see some 'easy wins' with Russia entering some areas and only facing light or no resistance.

Ukraine is already adopting the 'hit and run' strategy. It's their only hope.

'Javelins are working'

yes but an insurgency can be effective as we seen in Afghanistan. but the problem is youve lost your country in the process

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well Putin and Xi just signed a 30 year deal for oil and gas.. so to be honest I reckon any demands from the West to cancel this will just result in the 'Finger'

I agree, China is staying with Putin ( at present) .

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well Putin and Xi just signed a 30 year deal for oil and gas.. so to be honest I reckon any demands from the West to cancel this will just result in the 'Finger'

I tend to agree with you. Imus’ predictions also seem very plausible

[jmh2002]

The Russian Ministry of Defense says as a result of a successful operation on securing Kherson the North Crimean Canal has been unblocked, and water supply to Crimea has been restored.

^^^ this was a strategic goal

The heaviest fighting seems to be in the south at the moment, there are multiple strategic targets there.

I'm seeing captured troops on both sides. And images of destroyed Russian tanks, armoured vehicles, and even helicopters.

The Russians are starting to attack to non military targets too. Collateral damage or direct targetting? Grads are being used against targets so can be both.

In Chernihiv a Russian Intelligence Unit surrended. They didn't want to fight or kill - they were just 'collecting information and hoped to go home after' - so they said...

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Did they have other choices? Has the west been pushing Ukraine's interests, or just the west's interests? The west response leading up to all this was "We see you! Don't do it, Vlad, or we'll ... get really really mad. Yeah". But actual military support was moved off the table months before. Was there not some realpolitik solution other than brinksmanship and invasion?

It's of course up to Ukrainians to choose their own course, but this isn't happening in isolation; this is a proxy, a move in a larger game. Is Ukraine a pawn in our game that we were willing to sacrifice? Did we do all we could to minimize the risk, and now the harsh toll, on Ukraine?

The Ukraine has a democratically-elected government. That is their self-determination. Other countries have global interests, and can invest. This is all normal and acceptable behavior.

There were other options on the part of Russia. This was unacceptable behavior. The world didn't "owe" Putin the Ukraine.

His intentions are obvious. He likely intends to install a Russian-friendly government. He'll likely do that and then pretend to leave.

Don't be a Putin apologist. He's going to feel the heat from this forever.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by imus

I think the plan is pretty clear. As Putin said "demilitarize" Ukraine first (ie invade, destroy military resistance, and conquer). Then install an pro-russian/allied/puppet government of their choosing, and make Ukraine a de facto vassal state of Russia with all that entails.

That way, no long term occupation required, controllable allied government forever (because Russia keeps them in power just like Belarus). Ukraine in name only after that with the purported "genocide" stopped and an advantageous outcome for Russia. See, we didn't take over Ukraine, we just put a stop to the atrocities that were being committed by the old regime. A humanitarian peacekeeping mission.

Correct.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

DH is suggesting that the west pushed Putin into this by offering the potential of NATO and EU membership.

By cynically pretending to offer what they never intended to give, for the purpose of stirring up the Russians.


For interfering in the internal affairs of Ukraine and organizing a coup which removed a democratically elected pro-Russian president and installed a hostile anti-Russian government full of neo-Nazis.


And for the 1000000th time, that does NOT justify the barbaric violent actions Putin is doing in Ukraine now. Nothing justifies the unproked and criminal attack on Ukraine. Which is as unjustifiable and criminal as our unprovoked attack on Iraq. But if we want to prevent these things from happening, if we want to have the ability to negotiate out of such situations, we MUST understand the motives of the other side, and we MUST look in the mirror and see what we ourselves have done to contribute to the situation. Once we turn it into a Star Wars cartoon of perfect good against absolute evil it becomes impossible to understand anything or solve anything -- war is inevitable, between people who think like that.

[AndyEss]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

By cynically pretending to offer what they never intended to give, for the purpose of stirring up the Russians.


For interfering in the internal affairs of Ukraine and organizing a coup which removed a democratically elected pro-Russian president and installed a hostile anti-Russian government full of neo-Nazis.


And for the 1000000th time, that does NOT justify the barbaric violent actions Putin is doing in Ukraine now. Nothing justifies the unproked and criminal attack on Ukraine. Which is as unjustifiable and criminal as our unprovoked attack on Iraq. But if we want to prevent these things from happening, if we want to have the ability to negotiate out of such situations, we MUST understand the motives of the other side, and we MUST look in the mirror and see what we ourselves have done to contribute to the situation. Once we turn it into a Star Wars cartoon of perfect good against absolute evil it becomes impossible to understand anything or solve anything -- war is inevitable, between people who think like that.

Zelensky is Jewish. Grossman (Prime Minister of Ukraine when Zelensky was elected) was Jewish. 8 million Ukrainians died during WW2 - the highest percentage of any country other than Poland.
Your comment is pure Putin propaganda

[jmh2002]

Eighteen Russian Il-76s Carrying Troopers Approach Kiev – Bellingcat

Russia is trying to capture Kiev as soon as possible in order to install a puppet government.

Eighteen Il-76 transport planes are approaching Kiev. They will drop a landing force on the city, which has the task of capturing the city . This was stated by investigative journalist, Bellingcat CEO Kristo Grozev on Twitter .

"Sources in the Ukrainian authorities told me that eighteen Il-76 transport aircraft took off from Pskov in the direction of Kiev, and will arrive in the capital in an hour. The only possible explanation is that the Russians are pursuing the goal of capturing and subjugating Kiev in order to install a puppet government today (February 24 - ed.) While the whole world is watching this and doing almost nothing," he wrote.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

By cynically pretending to offer what they never intended to give, for the purpose of stirring up the Russians.

For interfering in the internal affairs of Ukraine and organizing a coup which removed a democratically elected pro-Russian president and installed a hostile anti-Russian government full of neo-Nazis.

This is false. You can't believe everything posted on the internet.

In addition to that being false, the current democratically-elected government aren't a bunch of neo-Nazis.

But I don't blame you for hitting "replay" on the Nazi nonsense as the reality doesn't support Putin's invasion.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And for the 1000000th time, that does NOT justify the barbaric violent actions Putin is doing in Ukraine now. Nothing justifies the unproked and criminal attack on Ukraine. Which is as unjustifiable and criminal as our unprovoked attack on Iraq. But

There is no "But" here.

It's unjustified. Let's leave it at that.

This isn't the time for "there's bad guys on both sides" trope.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

By cynically pretending to offer what they never intended to give, for the purpose of stirring up the Russians.


For interfering in the internal affairs of Ukraine and organizing a coup which removed a democratically elected pro-Russian president and installed a hostile anti-Russian government full of neo-Nazis.


And for the 1000000th time, that does NOT justify the barbaric violent actions Putin is doing in Ukraine now. Nothing justifies the unproked and criminal attack on Ukraine. Which is as unjustifiable and criminal as our unprovoked attack on Iraq. But if we want to prevent these things from happening, if we want to have the ability to negotiate out of such situations, we MUST understand the motives of the other side, and we MUST look in the mirror and see what we ourselves have done to contribute to the situation. Once we turn it into a Star Wars cartoon of perfect good against absolute evil it becomes impossible to understand anything or solve anything -- war is inevitable, between people who think like that.

The young men go to fight and die for a better world.. when the dust settles and the smoke clears the corrupt old men come up out of their bunkers and recreate what was before..