War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

See: Melian dialogue. Have we really not progressed as a civilization?

The only reason Russia won't keep rolling is because of the UN and NATO. So I guess that's an answer to my question.

There’s no evidence that would happen. And arguably had NATO not been created Europe would have created its own defensive organisation

Overcoming a European series of very wealthy and technically advanced countries would be impossible for Russia. It’s economy is a third of the size of Italy !!

[laird]

The best hope for a reasonable end to this invasion is the Russians themselves , there have been a few anti war protests in Russia , hopefully they will grow
I also hope that there are people close to Putin who will. Stop him before he hits the nuclear button

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

"Lapdog" is unhelpful and inaccurate.

The time is past... but was there at any earlier time a possible other outcome where Ukraine makes some concessions to Russia - like returning to the constitutionally neutral status they had prior to 2014, that would have been sufficient to stop the Russian invasion?

Maybe not and the invasion was long preordained. But otherwise, this question will be answered by historians: would it have been better to kiss a little bit of Putin ass now, to avoid invasion and remain a sovereign country? And no, this isn't 1939, and Russia won't be rolling over Europe any time soon.

Lapdog may have been unhelpful but it was not inaccurate.

Ukraine chose not to be the lapdog, they chose to fight. They will probably lose and become an occupied vassal state but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth doing. Fighting against what is wrong even when you expect to lose is courage worth admiring.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There’s no evidence that would happen. And arguably had NATO not been created Europe would have created its own defensive organisation

Overcoming a European series of very wealthy and technically advanced countries would be impossible for Russia. It’s economy is a third of the size of Italy !!

NATO IS Europe's defensive organization, and it was designed specifically to counter Russia.

Russia doesn't have to be an imperial, expanding power. It can be a cooperative country, just like everyone else.

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by laird

The best hope for a reasonable end to this invasion is the Russians themselves , there have been a few anti war protests in Russia , hopefully they will grow
I also hope that there are people close to Putin who will. Stop him before he hits the nuclear button

I think you are right. I hope the US and western European countries will do everything they can to exacerbate that antiwar element in Russia.

We can make this invasion financially unsustainable by denying Russian access to the global financial system. And as we did when they occupied Afghanistan, we can arm the opposition and make it militarily costly. Then we hope the internal politics of Russia does the rest.

But that seems like a slow process.

In the meantime, ordinary human Ukrainians —who didn’t have a pot to piss in to begin with—will suffer.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

NATO IS Europe's defensive organization, and it was designed specifically to counter Russia.

yes I agree, I was merely addressing the idea that without it Putin would invade all of Europe

where NATO not there, Europe would have created a similar organization anyway

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Lapdog may have been unhelpful but it was not inaccurate.

Ukraine chose not to be the lapdog, they chose to fight. They will probably lose and become an occupied vassal state but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth doing. Fighting against what is wrong even when you expect to lose is courage worth admiring.

courage yes, but if you dont exist at the end , perhaps not the wisest action

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There’s no evidence that would happen. And arguably had NATO not been created Europe would have created its own defensive organisation

Overcoming a European series of very wealthy and technically advanced countries would be impossible for Russia. It’s economy is a third of the size of Italy !!

Lyndsey Graham has them pretty much level pegging..
https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...tries%20differ.

But its not what you've got its how you play it.. question is, can the financiers sitting on one side of the chess board outplay the strategist.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by hedgeworth

I think you are right. I hope the US and western European countries will do everything they can to exacerbate that antiwar element in Russia.

We can make this invasion financially unsustainable by denying Russian access to the global financial system. And as we did when they occupied Afghanistan, we can arm the opposition and make it militarily costly. Then we hope the internal politics of Russia does the rest.

But that seems like a slow process.

In the meantime, ordinary human Ukrainians —who didn’t have a pot to piss in to begin with—will suffer.

listening to Boris , it seems they will not remove access to SWIFT, but its looks like we wont see many russians in greece this year !

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Lyndsey Graham has them pretty much level pegging..
https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...tries%20differ.

But its not what you've got its how you play it.. question is, can the financiers sitting on one side of the chess board outplay the strategist.

wars are won by money

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Looking at the continuous news. I think this might be over in 48 hours. aljazeera coverage and analysis is fantastic.

This isn't going to be over in 48 hours.

[goboatingnow]

Putins is now defending his actions , looks like " if youre explaining you're loosing " !!!

I believe it will bring his demise

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Putins is now defending his actions , looks like " if youre explaining you're loosing " !!!

I believe it will bring his demise

Correct.

He actually could have achieved most of his objectives just by occupying the separatist areas. That was the sweet spot, and he may have kind of gotten away with that.

Instead, he went "full invasion", which isn't going to play well anywhere. He's bringing suffering to the Ukrainians, and this will blow back on his own populace.


“Our assessment that they [the Russians] have every intention of basically decapitating the government and installing their own method of governance,”


-- Senior Pentagon official

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

listening to Boris , it seems they will not remove access to SWIFT, but its looks like we wont see many russians in greece this year !

As I understand it, swift only handles about half the global transactions. Both Russia and China have developed their own global systems, mostly as a result of our attempts to cut them off from swift in the past.

I would say Putin has spent the past decade or two preparing defenses against financial sanctions. I have heard that much of the money he looted from his country is held in the west by third parties. The panama papers exposed some of this. Perhaps we can get our hands on that.

And we could sink his boat.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

courage yes, but if you dont exist at the end , perhaps not the wisest action

The country may cease to exist but the people will survive and the memory of that resistance may form the backbone of future insurrections against the occupying Russians.