War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

No.


When you stop holding Putin responsible for his decisions, THAT is when you lose touch with reality.

Nobody is suggesting that Putin isn’t responsible. Pointing out however he’s just one of a long line of aggressors also doesn’t release him from his responsibilities.

Until we have a way to prevent extra territorial activity this stuff we are witnessing will continue. Currently there seems little we can do.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Adelie

So proposing that another country become Putin’s lapdog was a “reasonable” proposal?

Only in the Thucydides "Melian dialogue" sense.

The Athenians warn the Melians not to hope and believe in honor, because ultimately ‘might is right’ – power is ultimately the only thing that matters.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Adelie

So proposing that another country become Putin’s lapdog was a “reasonable” proposal?

I don't think 'Lapdog' is quite what was asked for.. merely a guarantee that Ukraine would not join NATO or the EU remaining a buffer state so NATO presence stayed limited on Russia's borders.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Nobody is suggesting that Putin isn’t responsible. Pointing out however he’s just one of a long line of aggressors also doesn’t release him from his responsibilities.

DH is suggesting that the west pushed Putin into this by offering the potential of NATO and EU membership.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I don't think 'Lapdog' is quite what was asked for.. merely a guarantee that Ukraine would not join NATO or the EU remaining a buffer state so NATO presence stayed limited on Russia's borders.

Lapdog is, in fact, what Putin wanted.

Putin could have worked diplomatically to ensure Ukraine didn't join NATO. He only needed to convince one country out of the 30 NATO members.

What's easier? Convince one of the 30 member countries to vote against admitting Ukraine, or military invasion that you KNOW will destabilize the region, and your country will suffer economic blowback from?

He chose military invasion.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

DH is suggesting that the west pushed Putin into this by offering the potential of NATO and EU membership.

There is an element of truth in that. The decision Putin has taken isn’t simplistic , it’s partially as a result of feeling encircled , it’s partially a “ grand Russia “ strategy and it’s partially a desire to resuscitate the “ Soviet Union “

The fact that Ukraine is caught up in this is unfortunate. But the west is not an innocent in this.

Again and I’m tired saying this. Nothing justifies aggressive extra territorial action BY ANYONE. the subjugation of people by outsiders is always wrong.

The issue is can we stop this type of thing.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by hedgeworth

Good lord you are thick. The corporation still exists. I no longer represent it. I think it through bro

So your ID was the corporations name.???
Cheap advertising.. Damn..
I should have had deepwaterdeliveries as my avatar.. Woe is me..

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There is an element of truth in that. The decision Putin has taken isn’t simplistic , it’s partially as a result of feeling encircled , it’s partially a “ grand Russia “ strategy and it’s partially a desire to resuscitate the “ Soviet Union “

The fact that Ukraine is caught up in this is unfortunate. But the west is not an innocent in this.

Again and I’m tired saying this. Nothing justifies aggressive extra territorial action BY ANYONE. the subjugation of people by outsiders is always wrong.

The issue is can be stop this type of thing.

Denying Ukraine the possibility of self-determination is a problem.

I would have been be OK with denying them NATO membership, but arming them to the teeth.

Putin wanting to recreate a part of the Soviet Union isn't justification for invading Ukraine and killing a lot of people.

[goboatingnow]

Looking at the continuous news. I think this might be over in 48 hours. aljazeera coverage and analysis is fantastic.

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by boatman61

So your ID was the corporations name.???

Cheap advertising.. Damn..

I should have had deepwaterdeliveries as my avatar.. Woe is me..

It has nothing to do with names. Did you get hit on the head or something as a child?

The corporation is still using the corporation’s account. I don’t use it because I don’t run the corporation anymore. Good Lord.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Adelie

So proposing that another country become Putin’s lapdog was a “reasonable” proposal?

"Lapdog" is unhelpful and inaccurate.

The time is past... but was there at any earlier time a possible other outcome where Ukraine makes some concessions to Russia - like returning to the constitutionally neutral status they had prior to 2014, that would have been sufficient to stop the Russian invasion?

Maybe not and the invasion was long preordained. But otherwise, this question will be answered by historians: would it have been better to kiss a little bit of Putin ass now, to avoid invasion and remain a sovereign country? And no, this isn't 1939, and Russia won't be rolling over Europe any time soon.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by hedgeworth

It has nothing to do with names. Did you get hit on the head or something as a child?

The corporation is still using the corporation’s account. I don’t use it because I don’t run the corporation anymore. Good Lord.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

"Lapdog" is unhelpful and inaccurate.

It's not an inaccurate characterization of what Putin requested the other day.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

"Lapdog" is unhelpful and inaccurate.

Would it have been better to kiss a little bit of Putin ass now, to avoid invasion and remain a sovereign country? And no, this isn't 1939, and Russia won't be rolling over Europe any time soon.

See: Melian dialogue. Have we really not progressed as a civilization?

The only reason Russia won't keep rolling is because of the UN and NATO. So I guess that's an answer to my question.

[MadMike]

I have no connection to either Ukraine or Russia but have read all 47+ pages of this thread and appreciate the contributions. It has kept me level headed in these crazy times. Until now, I never understood the response form a relative in Greece in 2014 regarding a comment I made about the annexation of Crimea. I stated how unjust the action was but the retort was "why would you side with a bunch of neo-Nazi fascists'"?
Fast forward to Putin's operation of de-Nazification and I realize how ingrained these notions were in that geographic neighborhood.