War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Your apologizing for naked aggression something the entire world (minus China) has condemned is pathetic and sad.



You can say it isn't a land grab but Russia will annex at least part of the Ukraine. Most people call that a land grab. The rationale real or merely propaganda as a justification doesn't matter. They are seizing territory that doesn't belong to them from a non-hostile neighbor by using military force. That is a friggin land grab.



Putin has said there is no such thing an independent Ukraine that Ukraine is really just a part of Russia.

I’m not apologising , I’m saying the US is an aggressive amoral superpower and im saying Russia is an aggressive amoral superpower ( or putins thinks it is. )

Both have blood all over their hands.

Damming both does not and is not apologising for either

Or perhaps Iraq was “ justified “ and Ukraine isn’t.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

DH, you got this wrong as recent as yesterday, when you said Putin was offering Ukraine a way out of this. That all they had to do was choose "Russia". That was never a possibility. This was ALWAYS going to be an invasion.

I did not get it wrong. There was a proposal made, a reasonable one. It was brushed aside.

At what point the invasion became inevitable, I don't know and didn't claim to know. I always said it was "likely". It could have been avoided with an agreement along the lines I posted about long ago. We didn't take it seriously. This is the result.

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

. . . Putin didn't even pick up the phone when Zelinsky called.

Well, sure. Then it was already too late. We had months to come to the table with serious intentions. We did not. I'm afraid Zelensky made a mistake of waiting for us to agree with them, rather than taking the initiative earlier.

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

. . . Putin invaded another sovereign country. Period. No buts. It's on him, and he's going to pay the price.

Anytime you start saying this or that is "on" this side or other, you lose touch with reality and the nuances of the situation. This is one of the major causes of this kind of tragedy. It's "on" all of us, as it always is.

"Putin invaded another sovereign country. Period. No buts." So that's all you need to know, right? Why is not important? What we could have done is not important? What we did to contribute to this is not important? This kind of wilful ignorance is one of the main causes of this kind of situation.

And does this apply equally to Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia? Libya? We invaded another sovereign country? Period? No buts? Maybe Clinton, Bush, and Obama should all be imprisoned as war criminals? America should be considered evil, period, no buts? Therefore America's interests, motivations, whatever, shouldn't even be considered or discussed?


America did some really evil things, but that doesn't make us an evil empire, period no buts, whose interests don't matter. Same with Russia.

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

. . . I think leaders are smart enough not to start World War III, but Putin isn't going to get off lightly for this.

Here we agree, but it won't be because of our sanctions, which Putin will only laugh at. Putin's downfall will be at the hands of his own people.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Nonsense. We discussed this already, and I don't want to repeat myself. Russia invading Ukraine to grab LAND is about as funny as Saudi Arabia invading Yemen to grab their SAND. This has nothing to do with land. This is a tragically miscalculated attempt to prevent Ukraine from becoming a base for hostile powers.

Don't be daft. It IS a land grab. That doesn't mean he needs a location to plan beets.

It means to control the country politically.

If you can do it by convincing the people to choose your way, that's within the current norm. If you have to invade and occupy militarily and kill your enemies, that's outside the norm.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by hedgeworth

Pretty sure the rules say you’re not allowed to have a business account here if you’re not in business anymore. And I’m not. There’s just one of me and I have only one account here. This one.

Dunno if I class as a business account but I sure will not give up my name if I cease delivering boats.. just tell the Mods to remove the sponsoring vendor tag.
Boatman61 is forever..

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Don't be daft. It IS a land grab. That doesn't mean he needs a location to plan beets.

It means to control the country politically.

If you can do it by convincing the people to choose your way, that's within the current norm. If you have to invade and occupy militarily and kill your enemies, that's outside the norm.

It’s not a land grab. That’s not the purpose

Putin wants to demonstrate to the Russia people and to the world that it is the successor to the Soviet Union and that it can act extra territorially in the same way as the former Soviet Union and the US.

It’s my view he won’t succeed because Russia can’t sustain this action and is quite economically weak .

In the meantime Ukraine burns.

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Dunno if I class as a business account but I sure will not give up my name if I cease delivering boats.. just tell the Mods to remove the sponsoring vendor tag.

Boatman61 is forever..

You clearly don’t understand how corporations work.

[goboatingnow]

Worrying China has not condemned this no doubt hoarding it’s on position on being a “ super power “ with its own extra territorial ambition.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s not a land grab. That’s not the purpose

Putin wants to demonstrate to the Russia people and to the world that it is the successor to the Soviet Union and that it can act extra territorially in the same way as the former Soviet Union and the US.

It’s my view he won’t succeed because Russia can’t sustain this action and is quite economically weak .

In the meantime Ukraine burns.

Let me clarify, we're saying the same thing.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I did not get it wrong. There was a proposal made, a reasonable one. It was brushed aside.

…..

So proposing that another country become Putin’s lapdog was a “reasonable” proposal?

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Worrying China has not condemned this no doubt hoarding it’s on position on being a “ super power “ with its own extra territorial ambition.

I think Xi Jinping is taking careful notes. If Putin has even nominal success with this, acting on Taiwan becomes much more plausible. I also doubt that the west will be as willing to commit the same levels of economic sanctions on China as they apparently are with Russia.

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by Adelie

So proposing that another country become Putin’s lapdog was a “reasonable” proposal?

I was going to say the same thing

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by hedgeworth

You clearly don’t understand how corporations work.

Was not aware that was necessary on a cruising forum, you join.. you create an ID that's it.
Pretty sure there's others here linked to corporations without it affecting their continued membership post retirement.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Adelie

So proposing that another country become Putin’s lapdog was a “reasonable” proposal?

I suppose it depends on the alternative

In 1922 Gladstone told the Irish delegation , accept this proposal or face all out war.

Not dissimilar

( they signed, accepted partition which resulted in a civil war over the treaty )

This sh1t has been going on ever since one side is materially “ bigger “ then it’s neighbour.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Anytime you start saying this or that is "on" this side or other, you lose touch with reality and the nuances of the situation. This is one of the major causes of this kind of tragedy. It's "on" all of us, as it always is.

No.

When you stop holding Putin responsible for his decisions, THAT is when you lose touch with reality.

This isn't on us. This is on the guy who ordered the invasion yesterday.

He'll be the one held responsible.

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Was not aware that was necessary on a cruising forum, you join.. you create an ID that's it.

Pretty sure there's others here linked to corporations without it affecting their continued membership post retirement.

Good lord you are thick. The corporation still exists. I no longer represent it. I think it through bro