War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

[boatman61]

Or.. like Blair esteemed as Special Envoy of the Quartet on the Middle East advising on the area he wreaked havoc on..

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Stop with the moral equivalency. It's just not attractive today.

You think we can assign “ good” in this , nobody here is good , with the exception of the ordinary Ukrainian citizen fighting for his homeland.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Or.. like Blair esteemed as Special Envoy of the Quartet on the Middle East advising on the area he wreaked havoc on..

Yes like sending the Hangman to a civil rights meeting

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

You're quite knowledgeable, but some of the stuff you posted was incorrect, and some was out and out propaganda. You can't come here with a straight face and say "well, they shouldn't have dangled that EU membership". BS on that.

I never said that Ukraine is being attacked because of possible EU membership. EU and NATO are two completely different things. I said the EU should not have given Ukraine unrealistic expectations about ever being an EU member. It's part of the long list of very harmful things we did to Ukraine. EU membership was falsely floated for political purposes -- to give the Westernizers inside Ukraine something to promise to people, to help them gain the upper hand over the Russianizers.

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

. . . Blaming the West for this attack is drinking some serious kool-aid. There were other options.

I blame Putin for the attack. But the West, particularly the U.S., carries a huge amount of the blame too. We goaded and pushed Ukraine into this position. Perhaps it is too much nuance for you to understand that more than one party might have some blame, in a situation like this? Or is it all white hats and black hats for you?

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

.. . .Putin has done nothing but lie about this invasion. . . .

And your point is? Of course he lies all the time. Our politicians of course never lie.

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

U.S. intelligence has been providing the subtitles in real time, and it hasn't been pretty. They called it. They were right about the buildup, they were right that it was always planned as an invasion, they were right about the false flag operation, they were right about the cyber attacks, they were right that he was going to invade last night. I'm guessing they were also right about there being a murder list.

You don't have to he U.S. intelligence to know all of that. We all knew this, from the beginning. Some people thought it was a bluff. I always said it was likely to come to this.

Of course there's a murder list. There's always a murder list. That's part of every modern invasion. Just like we had our "deck of cards" murder list for Iraq. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11155798

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

. . . .Are you saying that Putin invaded to protect his own hide? . . ..

Who said that? Of course not. Putin will lose, not protect his hide with this. It will be his downfall, quite possibly. He is doing it because he thinks he can secure Ukraine against being used against Russia by foreign military forces. And to eliminate fascist forces in the country.

Putin lies all the time (like nearly all politicians), but when he announced the aims of the invasion, I think he was telling the truth. Twofold:

1. to neutralize the country; i.e. eliminate Ukraine's military potential

and

2. to "de-Nazify" the country.

I wrote a lot in this thread about the neo-Nazi, white power, fascist, and other ultra-right elements in Ukrainian politics. Some people simply didn't believe that this exists. Others thought I was just smearing Ukraine a la Russian propaganda.

Well, I think I demonstrated all the facts about this. Of course most Ukrainians are not neo-Nazis, but these elements play a significant role in Ukraine since 2014, and whether or not this is an actual threat to Russia (wise men might disagree about it), it is a really true fact, which we ignore to our own detriment, that this makes them crazy. This is one of the main factors motivating the current events. We needed to have taken this seriously, in order to understand their motivations. We didn't.

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

This is a land grab. And all it was, all along. Putin hasn't even much pretended that it's anything else, so I don't know why you would.

Nonsense. We discussed this already, and I don't want to repeat myself. Russia invading Ukraine to grab LAND is about as funny as Saudi Arabia invading Yemen to grab their SAND. This has nothing to do with land. This is a tragically miscalculated attempt to prevent Ukraine from becoming a base for hostile powers.

As to what Putin pretends -- he said clearly what he wants. Land is not on the list. He also said, interestingly, that he does not intend to overthrow Ukraine's government -- that this is for the Ukrainians.

I'm not quite sure what that means, but perhaps the Ukrainians will not have any more "wrong choices" in government, once he has "de-Nazified" the country. I guess he intends to round up Svoboda, 14 Words, Azov Battalion, and other such elements. We shall see.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s important. It’s the reason this stuff is happening. The world has no found a way to prevent aggressive superpowers acting extra territorially. Until we do , the Putins and GWBs of this planet will feel they can act with impunity

Putin see these actions similar to the invasion of many countries by the Soviet Union in the 60s as the world did nothing

The world will do nothing again. Putin knows this.

You're right. Until everyone has the same amount of power, it's not possible to fix this. And that's never going to happen.

At least the U.S. has supported the implementation of the United Nations, which gives countries another forum (other than outright war) to resolve issues.

But no, I'm not buying into the "We owed Putin Ukraine" narrative. Putin is breaking the international norm here, and he will pay the price. Putin is operating out of the Hitler playbook and we see how kind history has been to him.

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ahh.. another Zippee.. a long time member but with a different name and phoney join date..

Read the rules..

Pretty sure the rules say you’re not allowed to have a business account here if you’re not in business anymore. And I’m not. There’s just one of me and I have only one account here. This one.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Putin see these actions similar to the invasion of many countries by the Soviet Union in the 60s as the world did nothing

The difference is many of those former soviet states are now members of NATO. Sadly that doesn't help Ukraine. Putin is a bully and like picking on weaker nations. He isn't going to go toe to toe with NATO because he would lose and in a humiliating fashion.

The weird irony is that the NATO troop building in Baltic states will likely become semi-permanent now so the end result of his actions will be even more not less NATO forces on Russia's borders. Across the rest of Europe NATO nations which have underfunded their defense spending are likely reconsidering that. The end result in a larger more powerful NATO with more forces pushed as close to Russia as possible.

I would also expect some high end weapon system deals at very favorable prices to beef up the Baltic states domestic defenses.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

That's exactly what he's doing.

I think he's underestimating the blowback he's going to get in the world, in Ukraine, and probably even in Russia.

He's going to end up in a war crimes tribunal.

A war crime tribunal could only hold Putin accountable after a surrender of Russia. Don’t be daft

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Statistical

The difference is many of those former soviet states are now members of NATO. Sadly that doesn't help Ukraine. Putin is a bully and like picking on weaker nations. He isn't going to go toe to toe with NATO because he would lose and in a humiliating fashion.

Of course. He’s acting within his limits no more then the US reached its limits in Afghanistan. He’s not a madman. This is a carefully planned attack. It’s despicable but it’s not the actions of a madman.

[letsgetsailing3]

DH, you got this wrong as recent as yesterday, when you said Putin was offering Ukraine a way out of this. That all they had to do was choose "Russia". That was never a possibility. This was ALWAYS going to be an invasion.

Putin didn't even pick up the phone when Zelinsky called.

This is a tragedy of monumental scale. It goes beyond the Kissinger article you read, or the propaganda RT put out about the 2014 Ukraine election.

Putin invaded another sovereign country. Period. No buts. It's on him, and he's going to pay the price.

Yes, we all get geopolitics. It's not that everyone but you is stupid. There were some diplomatic barriers that Putin blew through, and it's going to be costly for the Ukraine, Russia, and the world.

I think leaders are smart enough not to start World War III, but Putin isn't going to get off lightly for this.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

You're right. Until everyone has the same amount of power, it's not possible to fix this. And that's never going to happen.

At least the U.S. has supported the implementation of the United Nations, which gives countries another forum (other than outright war) to resolve issues.

But no, I'm not buying into the "We owed Putin Ukraine" narrative. Putin is breaking the international norm here, and he will pay the price. Putin is operating out of the Hitler playbook and we see how kind history has been to him.

Explain how a major superpower which rolled over a Middle Eastern sovereign country and left it devastated

Does that make GWB like Hitler ?

The Soviet Union is also a founding member of the UN ( Russia didn’t exist as a sovereign state )

Don’t descend into partisan arguments ,

super powers are completely amoral , all of them. All of them have innocent blood on their hands.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s important. It’s the reason this stuff is happening. The world has no found a way to prevent aggressive superpowers acting extra territorially. Until we do , the Putins and GWBs of this planet will feel they can act with impunity

Putin see these actions similar to the invasion of many countries by the Soviet Union in the 60s as the world did nothing

The world will do nothing again. Putin knows this.

Or perhaps a dead Iraqi isn’t as valuable to you as a dead Ukrainian.

Indeed!


Another factor in all this, which we haven't discussed yet, is the hideous example we gave, over and over again, in invading and/or bombing and destroying Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Serbia -- just because we CAN. With impunity, with lying false pretenses like nonexistent WMD's, etc., etc.. Just because we were too powerful for anyone to resist.


I wrote about that at the time -- I wrote, 20 years ago or so, that today no one can oppose us, but in 20 years, 30 years maybe there will be other powers who can't be resisted militarily? Is this the right rule to have? How will we feel when it's not us doing this?



Now we see this has come home to roost -- they are doing just what we have been doing for years.


The fact that we have been doing it in no way justifies what they are doing, which is a crime. But we should look in the bloody mirror!!!

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Nonsense. We discussed this already, and I don't want to repeat myself. Russia invading Ukraine to grab LAND is about as funny as Saudi Arabia invading Yemen to grab their SAND. This has nothing to do with land. This is a tragically miscalculated attempt to prevent Ukraine from becoming a base for hostile powers.

As to what Putin pretends -- he said clearly what he wants. Land is not on the list. He also said, interestingly, that he does not intend to overthrow Ukraine's government -- that this is for the Ukrainians.

I'm not quite sure what that means, but perhaps the Ukrainians will not have any more "wrong choices" in government, once he has "de-Nazified" the country. I guess he intends to round up Svoboda, 14 Words, Azov Battalion, and other such elements. We shall see.

Your apologizing for naked aggression something the entire world (minus China) has condemned is pathetic and sad.

You can say it isn't a land grab but Russia will annex at least part of the Ukraine. Most people call that a land grab. The rationale real or merely propaganda as a justification doesn't matter. They are seizing territory that doesn't belong to them from a non-hostile neighbor by using military force. That is a friggin land grab.

Putin has said there is no such thing an independent Ukraine that Ukraine is really just a part of Russia.

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed!


Another factor in all this, which we haven't discussed yet, is the hideous example we gave, over and over again, in invading and/or bombing and destroying Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Serbia -- just because we CAN. With impunity, with lying false pretenses like nonexistent WMD's, etc., etc.. Just because we were too powerful for anyone to resist.


I wrote about that at the time -- I wrote, 20 years ago or so, that today no one can oppose us, but in 20 years, 30 years maybe there will be other powers who can't be resisted militarily? Is this the right rule to have? How will we feel when it's not us doing this?



Now we see this has come home to roost -- they are doing just what we have been doing for years.


The fact that we have been doing it in no way justifies what they are doing, which is a crime. But we should look in the bloody mirror!!!

You sound like a Putin speach

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

But no, I'm not buying into the "We owed Putin Ukraine" narrative. Putin is breaking the international norm here, and he will pay the price.

No-one is saying that Putin is "owed Ukraine". Stop with the strawmen.

..."International norm"? Hitler? I'd laugh if things weren't so tragic.

Seriously, you could give your chest-thumping here a rest, too.