War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But I posted exactly correct information, and my predictions have unfortunately come true. If you want to dispute any particular point, feel free.

Putin, as I predicted, is in a much more precarious position than people in the West imagine. He is going to great lengths to avoid bloodshed in Ukraine -- using precision weapons, announcing that Ukrainian soldiers who lay down their weapons can simply go home. Knowing that Russians won't tolerate a bloody war with their own people. Whether he will manage to avoid large-scale bloodshed with such a massive attack is doubtful. This is a horrible tragedy. I've been on the phone all day with people from both countries. Everyone is in shock.

You're quite knowledgeable, but some of the stuff you posted was incorrect, and some was out and out propaganda. You can't come here with a straight face and say "well, they shouldn't have dangled that EU membership". BS on that.

Blaming the West for this attack is drinking some serious kool-aid. There were other options.

Putin has done nothing but lie about this invasion. First he said it was a military exercise. Then he said he was withdrawing. Then he recognized the two separatist areas, and said Ukraine wasn't even a state, really. Then he claimed they were under attack. Then he invaded "for their protection". Then he made demands on the Ukraine. Then he wouldn't take Zelensky's call. Then he executed a full invasion. Then he announced that the West should not interfere, as he's taken into account all possible actions on their part.

U.S. intelligence has been providing the subtitles in real time, and it hasn't been pretty. They called it. They were right about the buildup, they were right that it was always planned as an invasion, they were right about the false flag operation, they were right about the cyber attacks, they were right that he was going to invade last night. I'm guessing they were also right about there being a murder list.

Are you saying that Putin invaded to protect his own hide? I think that part might be true. But I don't really care about Putin's future, or that of the Oligarchs in Russia.

This is a land grab. And all it was, all along. Putin hasn't even much pretended that it's anything else, so I don't know why you would.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by atoll

The west has about £320 billion invested in Russia some of which DH has obviously had some dealings with,so i think he probably has a far better idea of what is going on there than many here,regardless of ideology.
probably take off your rose tinted glasses as well,some where in the middle might be real politic,we are all guilty of assuming what we read in the media is the truth.

I'm not the biggest fan of the media, but i'd give them an edge in credibility over Putin this week.

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

You're quite knowledgeable, but some of the stuff you posted was incorrect, and some was out and out propaganda. You can't come here with a straight face and say "well, they shouldn't have dangled that EU membership". BS on that.

Blaming the West for this attack is drinking some serious kool-aid. There were other options.

Putin has done nothing but lie about this invasion. First he said it was a military exercise. Then he said he was withdrawing. Then he recognized the two separatist areas, and said Ukraine wasn't even a state, really. Then he claimed they were under attack. Then he invaded "for their protection". Then he made demands on the Ukraine. Then he wouldn't take Zelensky's call. Then he executed a full invasion. Then he announced that the West should not interfere, as he's taken into account all possible actions on their part.

U.S. intelligence has been providing the subtitles in real time, and it hasn't been pretty. They called it. They were right about the buildup, they were right that it was always planned as an invasion, they were right about the false flag operation, they were right about the cyber attacks, they were right that he was going to invade last night. I'm guessing they were also right about there being a murder list.

Are you saying that Putin invaded to protect his own hide? I think that part might be true. But I don't really care about Putin's future, or that of the Oligarchs in Russia.

This is a land grab. And all it was, all along. Putin hasn't even much pretended that it's anything else, so I don't know why you would.

Look it’s obvious that he is trying to minimize the bloodshed and atrocities they’re about to happen and that are happening because to criticize the Kremlin would jeopardize his business interests. Pure and simple.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hedgeworth

Calling out deliberate disinformation about $5 billion facts is not trolling. Again, I encourage you to read the entire thread.

What are you talking about? "Deliberate disinformation"? Bah.

$5 billion was spent by the U.S. in Ukraine for propaganda purposes, and was by far the largest expenditure of this type anywhere in Europe or Asia during the same period. Yes, that is the cumulative amount since 1991 -- the Post article is correct. The way I described it was highly oversimplified, because I did not feel like writing War & Peace in a cruising forum. But what I wrote is essentially correct. This expenditure was part of our campaign to sell our "system" to countries we want to turn against our adversaries. It is exactly analogous to similar campaigns carried out by the Soviets during the Cold War. Besides general propagandizing, including through "pro Democracy" foundations, massive aid was given to Westernizing politicians and political parties in order to strengthen them against the Russianizing elements in the political system. This went so far as direct participation in the overthrow of the Russianizing government -- democratically elected -- of Yanukovich. Where we participated not only with money, but directly, through CIA and other operatives. We were caught on wiretap audio, which has been confirmed by us as authentic, discussing who we will approve to be in the post-coup cabinet. These facts are well established in the historical record. I could write a whole lot more on the subject but I really don't feel like it right now, today. Anyone who actually cares about understanding the situation, rather than indulging their own feelings of indignation, can easily find all the facts with just a little work.

None of this was explained in order to, in any way, justify the barbaric violence which is now happening in Ukraine. I say for the 1000th time. EXPLAINING and JUSTIFYING are two completely different things. There is no justification for the barbaric violence going on right now.

It's now too late for this. Understanding why, is the first step to coming up with a negotiated solution. The facts above are a crucial part of that. Unfortunately too few people in the West were interested in understanding where all this came from, and are too lazy to dig into the nuanced details, and perhaps, simply lack the imagination to see the situation from someone else's point of view. That is why we failed to find any diplomatic solution. Just like in this thread -- many people are just not interested in the details. All they know is "Putin bad man" "Russians bad", "Americans good", "invasion bad", which they repeat over and over again with only slight variations. Some of this is true (first and fourth propositions). But it's only a tiny part of the whole picture.

Wilful ignorance of the WHOLE PICTURE, is one of the major factors which led to this tragedy.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by hedgeworth

Look it’s obvious that he is trying to minimize the bloodshed and atrocities they’re about to happen and that are happening because to criticize the Kremlin would jeopardize his business interests. Pure and simple.

The Kremlin isn't a good bet this week.

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What are you talking about? "Deliberate disinformation"? Bah.

$5 billion was spent by the U.S. in Ukraine for propaganda purposes, and was by far the largest expenditure of this type anywhere in Europe or Asia during the same period. Yes, that is the cumulative amount since 1991 -- the Post article is correct. The way I described it was highly oversimplified, because I did not feel like writing War & Peace in a cruising forum. But what I wrote is essentially correct. This expenditure was part of our campaign to sell our "system" to countries we want to turn against our adversaries. It is exactly analogous to similar campaigns carried out by the Soviets during the Cold War. Besides general propagandizing, including through "pro Democracy" foundations, massive aid was given to Westernizing politicians and political parties in order to strengthen them against the Russianizing elements in the political system. This went so far as direct participation in the overthrow of the Russianizing government -- democratically elected -- of Yanukovich. Where we participated not only with money, but directly, through CIA and other operatives. We were caught on wiretap audio, which has been confirmed by us as authentic, discussing who we will approve to be in the post-coup cabinet. These facts are well established in the historical record. I could write a whole lot more on the subject but I really don't feel like it right now, today. Anyone who actually cares about understanding the situation, rather than indulging their own feelings of indignation, can easily find all the facts with just a little work.

None of this was explained in order to, in any way, justify the barbaric violence which is now happening in Ukraine. I say for the 1000th time. EXPLAINING and JUSTIFYING are two completely different things. There is no justification for the barbaric violence going on right now.

It's now too late for this. Understanding why, is the first step to coming up with a negotiated solution. The facts above are a crucial part of that. Unfortunately too few people in the West were interested in understanding where all this came from, and are too lazy to dig into the nuanced details, and perhaps, simply lack the imagination to see the situation from someone else's point of view. That is why we failed to find any diplomatic solution. Just like in this thread -- many people are just not interested in the details. All they know is "Putin bad man" "Russians bad", "Americans good", "invasion bad", which they repeat over and over again with only slight variations. Some of this is true (first and fourth propositions). But it's only a tiny part of the whole picture.

Wilful ignorance of the WHOLE PICTURE, is one of the major factors which led to this tragedy.

You didn’t highly oversimplify anything. You lied about it. Come on man

[boatman61]

Maybe he's operating on the Blitzkrieg technique.. most recently called Shock and Awe.. in the hopes of a swift end of major hostilities leaving mainly mopping up operations.
It worked for Hitler in demoralizing countries enough to minimise serious resistance and again in Iraq for the coalition.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

$5 billion was spent by the U.S. in Ukraine for propaganda purposes, and was by far the largest expenditure of this type anywhere in Europe or Asia during the same period. Yes, that is the cumulative amount since 1991 -- the Post article is correct. The way I described it was highly oversimplified, because I did not feel like writing War & Peace in a cruising forum. But what I wrote is essentially correct. This expenditure was part of our campaign to sell our "system" to countries we want to turn against our adversaries. It is exactly analogous to similar campaigns carried out by the Soviets during the Cold War. Besides general propagandizing, including through "pro Democracy" foundations, massive aid was given to Westernizing politicians and political parties in order to strengthen them against the Russianizing elements in the political system. This went so far as direct participation in the overthrow of the Russianizing government -- democratically elected -- of Yanukovich. Where we participated not only with money, but directly, through CIA and other operatives. We were caught on wiretap audio, which has been confirmed by us as authentic, discussing who we will approve to be in the post-coup cabinet. These facts are well established in the historical record.

None of this was explained in order to, in any way, justify the barbaric violence which is now happening in Ukraine. I say for the 1000th time. EXPLAINING and JUSTIFYING are two completely different things.

It's now too late for this. Understanding why, is the first step to coming up with a negotiated solution. The facts above are a crucial part of that. Unfortunately too few people in the West were interested in understanding where all this came from, and are too lazy to dig into the nuanced details, and perhaps, simply lack the imagination to see the situation from someone else's point of view. That is why we failed to find any diplomatic solution. Just like in this thread -- many people are just not interested in the details. All they know is "Putin bad man" "Russians bad", "Americans good", "invasion bad", which they repeat over and over again with only slight variations. Some of this is true (first and fourth propositions). But it's only a tiny part of the whole picture.

Wilful ignorance of the WHOLE PICTURE, is one of the major factors which led to this tragedy.

You have a serious blind spot where Putin is concerned.

The west invested in democracy? STOP THE PRESSES!

You said the other day the west helped violently overthrow the government of the Ukraine to install Nazis. Turns out that's not exactly true. You don't need War and Peace to parse this stuff.

Investing $5 billion since 1991 isn't exactly staging a violent coup. Giving Ukraine free-will isn't exactly a crime.

We don't like Russia? Why would we? They think military invasion of your neighbors just because they want relationships with the outside world is OK! Not exactly a great selling point. Which is why the ex-Soviet countries are flocking to the west.

Yes, Putin is isolated. This is what happens to violent dictators. Did you see his meeting the other day? The one where he made his cabinet vote in public to recognize the separatist republics? He's lining them up with him to swing in a war crimes tribunal

Let's call this what it is, and stop pretending Putin is a victim of U.S. policy.

[Lake-Effect]

‘We don’t want this’: Russians react to the Ukraine invasion

[goboatingnow]

The US has no moral high ground here Iraq and Afghanistan saw to that.

That doesn’t get Putin off the hook , but calling him a “ madman” etc is way too simplistic.

Ukraine is the battlefield of where Russian interests meets the west interests , everyone has bloody hands.

Again. This doesn’t get Putin of the hook

The world has to find away to prevent large powers from engaging in extra territorial activity , otherwise these types of activities will continue to occur perpetrated by so called super powers.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Maybe he's operating on the Blitzkrieg technique..

That's exactly what he's doing.

I think he's underestimating the blowback he's going to get in the world, in Ukraine, and probably even in Russia.

He's going to end up in a war crimes tribunal.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by hedgeworth

I’ve been on this board more than a decade under a different name. Because I was in the business. You know not of what you speak.

Now that I’m retired and able to speak my mind, I think I shall. I think you’re right about DH’s sailing related contributions. That’s why I made a distinction in my post between this thread and others.

Read the whole thread. Read what he said.

Ahh.. another Zippee.. a long time member but with a different name and phoney join date..
Read the rules..

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The US has no moral high ground here Iraq and Afghanistan saw to that.

Stop with the moral equivalency. It's just not attractive today.

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The US has no moral high ground here Iraq and Afghanistan saw to that.

That doesn’t get Putin off the hook , but calling him a “ madman” etc is way too simplistic.

Ukraine is the battlefield of where Russian interests meets the west interests , everyone has bloody hands.

Again. This doesn’t get Putin of the hook

The world has to find away to prevent large powers from engaging in extra territorial activity , otherwise these types of activities will continue to occur perpetrated by so called super powers.

[emoji106]

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Stop with the moral equivalency. It's just not attractive today.

It’s important. It’s the reason this stuff is happening. The world has no found a way to prevent aggressive superpowers acting extra territorially. Until we do , the Putins and GWBs of this planet will feel they can act with impunity

Putin see these actions similar to the invasion of many countries by the Soviet Union in the 60s as the world did nothing

The world will do nothing again. Putin knows this.

Or perhaps a dead Iraqi isn’t as valuable to you as a dead Ukrainian.