War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

[boatman61]

What I heard is Putin has announced a special military operation in Donbas.
That is the separatist area of Donetsk that's been fighting for 8 years.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

What I am calling out is the apologists, suggesting that because XYZ country did XYZ in XYZ time, it's ok for Putin and Russia to do it again now.

Ok, NOBODY has said "this is ok" in this thread. Nobody.

Here's the attitude that most concerns me: somebody (not in Ukraine) insisting there's such clear-cut right and wrong about this... implying that Ukrainian and Russian combatants must fight and die, Ukrainian citizens must be displaced or killed, and the world must beat itself up with sanctions... because somebody else says there's right and wrong here.

Ask yourself - what's the best outcome:

1. Ukrainians must stand firm, fight to the death if need be, the west tries to strangle Russia with sanctions, war drags on... and who knows where it leads
2. Ukrainian govt negotiates with Putin, agrees to some concessions around remaining neutral (their constitutional position before 2014), and the Russian forces don't advance out of the separatist-held regions

It seems selfish of us to expect Ukrainians to fight and die for our moral outrage. Seriously, why is agreeing now to not join NATO any more binding than saying they'd like to?

What outcome would the mothers of Ukrainian or Russian troops choose?

(though it sounds like the window for negotiating has just slammed shut )

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Letsgetsailing3.. I'm always careful around people, I learnt long ago the one's who approach with a smile often are hiding a dagger behind their backs.
As for sailing in the Eastern Med.. it'll get interesting..

Boatie, I'm guessing your instincts around people are reasonably good. Why would anyone mess with you?

I'm glad we (all of us) had this conversation. I learned a few things from many who participated. I doubt anyone actually changed their mind from whatever it was they were thinking when they got here. But the fact is that Putin was always headed in a certain direction, and now the world won't be quite as safe this summer.

Let's be careful out there.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Boatie, I'm guessing your instincts around people are reasonably good. Why would anyone mess with you?
.

I smile a lot so look suspicious..

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by boatman61

What I heard is Putin has announced a special military operation in Donbas.
That is the separatist area of Donetsk that's been fighting for 8 years.

You have your facts a bit mixed up...

Donbas is the region including the two Oblasts (states) of Donetsk and Luhansk.

The separatist controlled area is about 30% of Donbas and includes parts of both Donetsk Oblast and Luhansk Oblast.

I posted a map map diagram earlier in the thread to explain this.


But yes some reports say a military operation in Donbas.

But I have unconfirmed reports of explosions in other areas too, including as far west as Odessa.

It's not good, in any case

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Ok, NOBODY has said "this is ok" in this thread. Nobody.

When someone starts a conversation in this thread that says, "Well, Putin isn't right, but..." you can stop listening right then and there. That sentence should have ended with a period. There is no "but". Putin is wrong. Period. After that "but", they're getting ready to say something that just isn't relevant, and likely based on some false premise.

Putin has done nothing but lie all week. There isn't an excuse for it.

Now he's expanding his invasion. Not because he was provoked, but because it serves his interests.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by atoll

Putin announces special military operation,aimed at freeing the Dombass,calls for Ukranian military to lay down arms.
goal is to demilitarize ukraine,and de-nazification

come on you don't have to repeat propoganda garbage. you could at least use the word claim. Putin announces an unlawful invasion of a non-hostile neighbor is the reality.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

...It seems selfish of us to expect Ukrainians to fight and die for our moral outrage...

What planet are you on? Ukrainians are fighting and dying to protect their country, their land, their homes, and their families.

The same as anyone else would do when an aggressor, an invader, enters your country and tries to kill you

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Statistical

come on you don't have to repeat propoganda garbage. you could at least use the word claim. Putin announces an unlawful invasion of a non-hostile neighbor is the reality.

check for yourself,don't shoot the messenger!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCXHqBMPIng

you can live stream as well here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dii64Wkq5CE

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

What planet are you on? Ukrainians are fighting and dying to protect their country, their land, their homes, and their families.

That is, of course, their call. Not ours.

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

When someone starts a conversation in this thread that says, "Well, Putin isn't right, but..." you can stop listening right then and there. That sentence should have ended with a period. There is no "but". Putin is wrong. Period. After that "but", they're getting ready to say something that just isn't relevant, and likely based on some false premise.

Putin has done nothing but lie all week. There isn't an excuse for it.

Now he's expanding his invasion. Not because he was provoked, but because it serves his interests.

Sounds like a number of the accept/understand crowd were just plain wrong. Putin has no intention of being satisfied with even a “neutral” Ukraine

Shelling in kyiv. The Russians are interested in taking the whole country and maybe more. To me this has lots of potential for spilling over into nato or at least US interests.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

(though it sounds like the window for negotiating has just slammed shut )

At what point has Putin been open to negotiation?

Stop listening to what he's saying, and watch what he's doing.

There was never going to be any negotiation here. He throws out some explanations (or flat out lies) on TV, and gives his troops orders to move forward. He's been pretty consistent in this.

Turn off the Putin audio channel. U.S. intelligence has been giving you the subtitles.

[jmh2002]

BBC also says they have unconfirmed reports of explosions in other parts of Ukraine, including Kyiv which was captured on a live broadcast by a reporter:

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...ustom2=twitter

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Here's the attitude that most concerns me: somebody (not in Ukraine) insisting there's such clear-cut right and wrong about this

There is a clear right and wrong about this.

Russia is invading and annexing a non-hostile neighbor that is wrong.

What Ukraine does or doesn't do about that is up to Ukranians but there is absolutely a clear cut right and wrong.

[boatman61]

The gauntlet has just been thrown at NATO.