War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

That's no surprise, as DH's take = Putin's take on this. The article is about what Putin is basically saying, and I don't think anyone would dispute that this is his position.

It's also reminiscent of what Hitler did in WWII. It's the same kind of game plan, only with a lot stronger international community in place.

Putin has now recognized the separatist areas, invaded them, declared that Ukraine isn't a sovereign state, and made further demands.

It all appears to be just an excuse for a hostile takeover of another country. He didn't win politically, like he did in Belarus, so now he's taking the Ukraine militarily.

This was all unnecessary, and doesn't improve the security of Russia. If anything, it degrades and further isolates it.

Putin wants the USSR back, anything else is just excuses in aid of that goal.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Statistical

This rationalizing and justifying for naked aggression is pathetic and tiring. Russia annexed territory because it wanted to annex territory and thought it can get away with it. It has done it three times already and is going for a fourth.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by jmh2002

...let's also not try to portray Russia as the innocent, oppressed, under attack nation here - to do so is to fall into the exact trap that they want you to fall into...

[goboatingnow]

nobody is presenting Russia as " innocent " , there are some that are attempting to analyse the purpose of its intentions , an academic exercise as all will be revealed

what I am contending that the so called great powers have all acted aggressively, unilaterally and illegally and especially in recent years the US , largely because it has the financial and military power to do so.

Putin wishes to join this club, its very risky because in reality Russia is a very weak force in comparison to say the US and China

what is ridiculous is attempting to present the forces opposing Russia as having some moral superiority, hence using terms like " naked aggression " is just pejorative argumentation . All extra territorial activity is " aggressive " unless the host nation agrees to it

[jmh2002]

Unfortunately a lot of your posts, and a lot of DH's posts, come across as apologist.

[Chotu]

Wow this would all look stupid to visiting aliens.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Unfortunately a lot of your posts, and a lot of DH's posts, come across as apologist.

only to those that wish to be partisan, DH in particular has obvious domain knowledge and is trying to analyze the whys and where fors

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

only to those that wish to be partisan, DH in particular has obvious domain knowledge and is trying to analyze the whys and where fors

If DH’s “domain knowledge” is so great how did he get to this huge mistake about the 5 billion dollars that was spent. It seems like a big mistake for someone who is so well-informed.

Unless the mistake was deliberate.

I’m becoming more interested in the answers to the questions I posed in post number 356.

So far he has been silent on both the $5 billion mistake and the questions and post number 356

As an American, I guess I am partisan. On the other hand I’m really very interested in seeing the world as it truly is. When someone shades the truth it diminishes their credibility. It’s as simple as that

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

only to those that wish to be partisan, DH in particular has obvious domain knowledge and is trying to analyze the whys and where fors

And I don't have domain knowledge? With family still living there, extended family already seriously injured in the fighting in the past, and close family rotating through Donbas already for many years and about to be deployed to fight again?

So I will not apologise that I am partisan to anyone. But by the same token I don't post anything false, try to provide a balanced opinion, and even you have thanked me for my information.

But we see the apologists here clearly, don't think that anyone is fooled - just like we see the propaganda trolls elsewhere online.

And we see those who have posted completely false versions of history too.

And if we are forced to, we will fight, for our homes, and for our families, and for our lives.

And we will not suffer those who wish to apologise for those who make war upon us.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

And I don't have domain knowledge? With family still living there, extended family already seriously injured in the fighting in the past, and close family rotating through Donbas already for many years and about to be deployed to fight again?

So I will not apologise that I am partisan to anyone. But by the same token I don't post anything false, try to provide a balanced opinion, and even you have thanked me for my information.

But we see the apologists here clearly, don't think that anyone is fooled - just like we see the propaganda trolls elsewhere online.

And we see those who have posted completely fake versions of history too.

And if we are forced to, we will fight, for our homes, and for our families, and for our lives.

And we will not suffer those who wish to apologise for those who make war upon us.

I didnt argue your domain expertise , I merely commented on DHs

Again , and this is getting tiring , Im not saying what Russia is doing is not aggressive, nor am I saying that there are not those that will resist it .

Its not a matter of history

All so called great powers, have intervened in territories outside their own , both overtly aggressively, like Iraq, or covertly ( regime change etc ) . Its not a question of right and wrong , its a question of " muscle "

Puting has felt Russia has been denied this " stage " and yearns for the heady days of the power of the Soviet Union , he wishes to re-establish his ability to act extra-terroritorally

Thats all Im saying , what you are seeing is an attempt to return to Soviet era imperialism

its a very risky gamble , so I do not believe he will attempt to occupy all of Ukraine or overthrow the Gov , he does not process the capability in my view

The US should have been stopped in Iraq, Russia should be stopped in Ukraine, but the ability to do just that isn't available or feasible in many cases

and please , if you know anything of my islands history , we have been fighting against this for 600 years in one form or another, so I dont need to be reminded of " sacrifice"

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I didnt argue your domain expertise , I merely commented on DHs

Again , and this is getting tiring , Im not saying what Russia is doing is not aggressive, nor am I saying that there are not those that will resist it .

Its not a matter of history

All so called great powers, have intervened in territories outside their own , both overtly aggressively, like Iraq, or covertly ( regime change etc ) . Its not a question of right and wrong , its a question of " muscle "

Puting has felt Russia has been denied this " stage " and yearns for the heady days of the power of the Soviet Union , he wishes to re-establish his ability to act extra-terroritorally

Thats all Im saying , what you are seeing is an attempt to return to Soviet era imperialism

its a very risky gamble , so I do not believe he will attempt to occupy all of Ukraine or overthrow the Gov , he does not process the capability in my view

The US should have been stopped in Iraq, Russia should be stopped in Ukraine, but the ability to do just that isn't available or feasible in many cases

and please , if you know anything of my islands history , we have been fighting against this for 600 years in one form or another, so I dont need to be reminded of " sacrifice"

[emoji106]

[goboatingnow]

teh BBC analysis piece is interesting

"But his statements and speeches provide clues to his motivation. President Putin is deeply resentful of the way the Cold War ended, with Russia losing power, territory and influence. Nato enlargement to the east has left him feeling bitter. What's more, he sounds, increasingly, like a man on a Messianic mission to force Ukraine back into Moscow's orbit.

"He's looking more like an Ayatollah than an FSB security officer," says Vladimir Pastukhov, senior research associate at University College London. "He has an almost religious belief in his special place in history."

"He will go by stages. First, he recognised the [separatist] regions. Then he will put troops in. Next, those regions might announce a referendum on joining Russia according to the Crimea scenario. Then, maybe, there will be a local military operation to extend their territory up to their pre-2014 boundaries.

"If he's allowed to play the game by his rules, he will do this for as long as possible. He will cook the meat on a slow fire.""

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

And I don't have domain knowledge? With family still living there, extended family already seriously injured in the fighting in the past, and close family rotating through Donbas already for many years and about to be deployed to fight again?

So I will not apologise that I am partisan to anyone. But by the same token I don't post anything false, try to provide a balanced opinion, and even you have thanked me for my information.

But we see the apologists here clearly, don't think that anyone is fooled - just like we see the propaganda trolls elsewhere online.

And we see those who have posted completely false versions of history too.

And if we are forced to, we will fight, for our homes, and for our families, and for our lives.

And we will not suffer those who wish to apologise for those who make war upon us.

JMH.. no one is asking you to apologise.. nor am I an apologist for Putin.
I am however not to happy with the gung ho bravado shown by some who are sitting 5000 miles away and unlikely to ever come close to any danger.
To be honest.. and not to belittle your relatives risks.. I think life has been pretty crap for civilians both sides of the divide in Donbas over the last 8 years.
But then its always the little people who suffer for the ambitions of so called leaders.

[goboatingnow]

But then its always the little people who suffer for the ambitions of so called leaders.

never a truer word was spoken, One only has to trawl through the aftermaths of various imperial " adventures" right though the ages to see who really got affected , The burden fell disproportionately on the poor ordinary joe ( and his family), both as cannon fodder and also increasingly in modern times in the form of innocent so-called collateral damage ( murdered innocent civilians in reality ). It matters not that the strike was from a t-35 Tank shell or a Predator drone , people die as leaders plot and plan

The little guy always gets it in the neck

[hedgeworth]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

never a truer word was spoken, One only has to trawl through the aftermaths of various imperial " adventures" right though the ages to see who really got affected , The burden fell disproportionately on the poor ordinary joe ( and his family), both as cannon fodder and also increasingly in modern times in the form of innocent so-called collateral damage ( murdered innocent civilians in reality ). It matters not that the strike was from a t-35 Tank shell or a Predator drone , people die as leaders plot and plan

The little guy always gets it in the neck

Holy crap you guys found common ground

[AKA-None]

(null)
Well pretty sure both China and Korea have both invaded other countries
How recently depends on what you consider recent