War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Ukrainian membership in NATO is not imminent. The process has many many steps and even if Ukraine met all of them they are so far from the finish line it would be a decade or more.

Ukraine doesn't even have a Membership Access Plan yet...

Thank you for some logic and reason instead of disinformation and conjecture

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

...the Ukraine...

Just a polite note (again) for everyone please:

Ukraine is not ‘the Ukraine’ and why it matters now
https://kyivindependent.com/opinion/...t-matters-now/

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Just a polite note (again) for everyone please:

Ukraine is not ‘the Ukraine’ and why it matters now
https://kyivindependent.com/opinion/...t-matters-now/

Sorry, force of habit from playing Risk as a child. Not unlike Putin in real life.

Given his speech earlier in the week, it appears that he calls it "The Ukraine".


I've been pretty inconsistent, and sometimes catch it, sometimes not. But point taken.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Given his speech earlier in the week, it appears that he calls it "The Ukraine".

Putin didn't give his speech in English


Speaking of which, the BBC did a fact-check of Putin's speech. It had this interesting tidbit:

Last year, the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany, Andriy Melnyk, suggested if Ukraine was unable to join Nato, it might have to reconsider its nuclear-free status.

So, no it doesn't seem like NATO membership is such a remote possibility, does it?

[goboatingnow]

We can only hope Ukraine stands for themselves with all of the weaponry that the US has sent them. Make swiss cheese out of about 300 tanks with the 2500 javelins, eliminate about 40,000 soldiers and Vlad will have problems at home. We will see shortly how good US arms are against the Modern Russian Bear. To keep this post about Sailing, I would advise against sailing in the black sea. for a while

The Ukrainians might annoy Russia but they know they cant win and it would decend into a bloodly mess , my view is that if Russisa remains inside the separatists areas, Ukraine will do nothing aside from limited actions

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Sorry, force of habit from playing Risk as a child.

I understand, thank you

I'm noting it for everyone because it is important to understand in the context of Putin's assertion that Ukraine is 'not a real country'.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Putin didn't give his speech in English


Speaking of which, the BBC did a fact-check of Putin's speech. It had this interesting tidbit:

Last year, the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany, Andriy Melnyk, suggested if Ukraine was unable to join Nato, it might have to reconsider its nuclear-free status.

So, no it doesn't seem like NATO membership is such a remote possibility, does it?

I was making a joke about Putin's terminology. I figured most here could follow it as such. It certainly reflects his thinking, which he did explain.

As far as NATO membership, I wouldn't take something the Ukranian ambassador to Germany says as a formal announcement from NATO. Again, "imminent" isn't the word I'd choose to use, as there is no actual source for it.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I understand, thank you

I'm noting it for everyone because it is important to understand in the context of Putin's assertion that Ukraine is 'not a real country'.

I get it.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I was making a joke about Putin's terminology. I figured most here could follow it as such.

As far as NATO membership, I wouldn't take something the Ukranian ambassador to Germany says as a formal announcement from NATO. Again, "imminent" isn't the word I'd choose to use, as there is no actual source for it.

The point is not the timescales, NATO could rule out Ukrainian involvement in NATO , it has chosen not to. To Russia , the fact that this could be twenty years away is irrelevant , its about intent

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

So, no it doesn't seem like NATO membership is such a remote possibility, does it?

Time scale wise, yes, it is still quite remote.

Also you have countries like Hungary, with a more Russian sympathetic leadership, that routinely object to Ukraine joining various institutions, the latest one being the blocking of Ukraine's accession to the NATO's Joint Center for Advanced Technology in Cyber ​​Defense (CCDCOE): https://www.eurointegration.com.ua/n.../02/4/7133548/

Currently they would block Ukraine joining NATO for sure.

Although elections are due in Hungary soon, and the Prime Minister of Hungary Victor Orban may finally be on his way out, just as the Russian sympathetic leader Andrej Babiš lost in Czech Republic late last year too.

People are starting to tire of such things.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

As far as NATO membership, I wouldn't take something the Ukranian ambassador to Germany says as a formal announcement from NATO. Again, "imminent" isn't the word I'd choose to use, as there is no actual source for it.

A Ukraine ambassador publicly states his country's desire to join NATO. How much more formal do you want? And as per gbn, NATO refuses to say that it's NOT on the table.

Whatever else we may think about Putin or his methods, it's dishonest for us in the West to pretend that Ukraine isn't intending to join NATO, and that this wouldn't be a genuine threat to Russia.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The point is not the timescales, NATO could rule out Ukrainian involvement in NATO , it has chosen not to. To Russia , the fact that this could be twenty years away is irrelevant , its about intent

Twenty years from now is not imminent. Why should NATO rule out if a nation is allowed to join it. Russia speaks for what Ukraine is allowed or not allowed to do into perpetuity.

NATO is a defensive organization. Smaller countries not wanting to stomped on by bullies would likely want to join such an organization. That should be open to any country willing to undertake the commitment that joining NATO requires.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

A Ukraine ambassador publicly states his country's desire to join NATO. How much more formal do you want? And as per gbn, NATO refuses to say that it's NOT on the table.

Whatever else we may think about Putin or his methods, it's dishonest for us in the West to pretend that Ukraine isn't intending to join NATO, and that this wouldn't be a genuine threat to Russia.

Once again the nonsense word is IMMINENT. Ukraine has been very clear and open about wanting to join NATO for more than a decade now. It isn't a secret. Nobody is pretending it is a secret. Hell there is a wikipedia article on it. Given Ukraine's lack of development any future NATO membership is likely a 20+ years away. That is if they can stay on track and have sufficient commitment to that goal. Neither of which are certain.

Ukraine can want it but that doesn't mean it will happen in the near future.

Lastly Ukraine being in NATO isn't a threat to Russian. It ends Russian being able to annex more territory from Ukraine because the bully can only pick on smaller nations. Like all bullies it has no interest in the real fight that Article V would invoke if Russia attempted to invade a NATO state.

What is the difference between Ukraine being in NATO compared to not being in NATO other than Russia can no longer steal territory at will. If NATO wanted to attack Russia (it doesn't) it has plenty of land and sea routes that don't involve Ukraine. It isn't like NATO has been waiting 30 years to attack Russia and once Ukraine joins the final piece of the puzzle in in place.

Does anyone think a non-NATO Ukraine is going to defend Russia if NATO attacked. That if only Ukraine wasn't a NATO member than this hypothetical (and nonsense) NATO attack on Russia couldn't happen.

The sheer irony is that if Russia was concern about NATO attacking there sure as hell wouldn't be moving huge numbers of troops to the border with Ukraine. Maybe that is all this ebil NATO has been waiting for to launch this wipe Russia off the map attack.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

A Ukraine ambassador publicly states his country's desire to join NATO. How much more formal do you want? And as per gbn, NATO refuses to say that it's NOT on the table.

Whatever else we may think about Putin or his methods, it's dishonest for us in the West to pretend that Ukraine isn't intending to join NATO, and that this wouldn't be a genuine threat to Russia.

Asking to join NATO isn't admittance. Others here have explained the steps. Feel free to read up on it.

Ukraine absolutely wants to join NATO. This is not a justification for invasion. More of an excuse, really.

Part of the reason Russia's neighbors are nervous and want to join NATO is because Russia has a habit of invading them under false pretense.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Twenty years from now is not imminent. Why should NATO rule out if a nation is allowed to join it. Russia speaks for what Ukraine is allowed or not allowed to do into perpetuity.

NATO is a defensive organization. Smaller countries not wanting to stomped on by bullies would likely want to join such an organization.

pity we didn't let in Iraq then !!!

lets not descend in moral debates, none here is clean

The fact is Russia has national interests and is acting on it , just as teh US did in many many extra territorial "adventures "

IN my opinion just ignoring Russias concerns is exactly why we are in this mess