War in Ukraine/Med Cruising

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

The United State's interest here isn't to threaten Russia. It's to ensure the sovereignty of the Ukraine, and to protect Europe.

... you ARE naive.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

... you ARE naive.

The U.S. certainly has interests. I'm not naive, I just agree with them, for the most part.

I find the U.S. ideals to be preferable over those of dictators and autocrats.

[Muaddib1116]

I'll start by saying that I am truly out of my depth and probably a little naive. I haven't read every word posted here, but I think I've been following along reasonably well. I think the crux of Dockhead's position is his assertion that Russia has been forced into this action without choice. Dockhead clearly does not think it is justified, personally, but in his analysis, which is inherently an opinion, he seems to state and imply that America/The West's actions have forced Russia into this situation. This type of analysis implies an inherent justification, despite Dockhead's personal disapproval.

[boatman61]

So your response to someone who keeps pushing you is to keep stepping backwards.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by boatman61

So your response to someone who keeps pushing you is to keep stepping backwards.

I'm pretty sure that's a quote from Mein Kampf, and was used by Hitler to justify annexing Czechoslovakia.

His argument for that invasion was that the Germans needed the land to feed themselves. They needed it for their very survival.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

The U.S. certainly has interests. I'm not naive, I just agree with them, for the most part.

I find the U.S. ideals to be preferable over those of dictators and autocrats.

Again, not helpful here. your moral outrage won't cause Russians to pack up and go home, or Ukrainians to keep turning the other cheek.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Again, not helpful here. your moral outrage won't cause Russians to pack up and go home, or Ukrainians to keep turning the other cheek.

No, what's not helpful is the pretense that because the U.S. isn't perfect, that Russia is allowed to do what they want.

It's an invalid argument from the start.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

No, what's not helpful is the pretense that because the U.S. isn't perfect, that Russia is allowed to do what they want.

It's an invalid argument from the start.

Understanding is not allowing or condoning.

[Van Der Beek]

/off topic

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I'm pretty sure that's a quote from Mein Kampf, and was used by Hitler to justify annexing Czechoslovakia.

I'm pretty sure the statement was made in context of a bully pushing someone around, perhaps you should give him the benefit of a doubt here.

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

His argument for that invasion was that the Germans needed the land to feed themselves. They needed it for their very survival.

Are you talking about the Sudetenland? If so I believe the ethnic Germans were expelled from the entire region after the war, just as they were expelled from Eastern Germany after the war, with those lands then being given to Russia and Poland. Took place after the war between 1945 and 1955.

Clarification.
What was called Eastern Germany after the war was actually Central Germany, to better understand this look at a map of Germany after it's unification in 1871.

/end of off topic

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Understanding is not allowing or condoning.

Arguing moral equivalence isn't understanding.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

/off topic

I'm pretty sure the statement was made in context of a bully pushing someone around, perhaps you should give him the benefit of a doubt here.

The implication he's making is that the U.S. is being the bully here, and that Russia is just protecting themselves.

Russia just invaded a sovereign country. That's not protecting themselves, that's being the aggressor. Russia is able to do this because they have overwhelming military might in that region.

Putin's speech last night made the claim that the Ukraine isn't even a country. That certainly appears to be someone trying to rationalize a land grab.

[Van Der Beek]

I'm tracking with you now.

Wasn't aware of Putin's speech, think I can see where this is all going now.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Arguing moral equivalence isn't understanding.

Arguing moral ANYTHING at this point is fruitless. And pretending that you or I have anywhere the depth of knowledge and understanding about that part of the world, and this conflict, that DH and jmh2002 have, is just hubris on your part. Give the cheerleading a rest.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Arguing moral ANYTHING at this point is fruitless. And pretending that you or I have anywhere the depth of knowledge and understanding about that part of the world, and this conflict, that DH and jmh2002 have, is just hubris on your part. Give the cheerleading a rest.

Though DH has a good bit of knowledge about the area (admittedly surpassing mine), I have no problem pointing out when he crosses line from fact to unsubstantiated opinion. In spite of my lack of depth, I've noticed that he has mixed these. So I call it out.

He blames the U.S. for Russia's invasion. I disagree with that characterization. He's said his piece on that. I've said mine. We can probably move on from that.

Your insults aren't helpful, so I invite you to just stop. If you don't like my posts, just don't read them.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

The implication he's making is that the U.S. is being the bully here, and that Russia is just protecting themselves.

Russia just invaded a sovereign country. That's not protecting themselves, that's being the aggressor. Russia is able to do this because they have overwhelming military might in that region.

Putin's speech last night made the claim that the Ukraine isn't even a country. That certainly appears to be someone trying to rationalize a land grab.

No, you still don't understand.


I never said "Russia is just protecting themselves." Russia are being a bully too. Just like we are. And Ukraine is caught in the middle.