LPG/propane - what is your preferred storage cylinder and why?

[marshmat]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

the local retailers can't refill , so they keep a store of full ones and you return your empty one they are then refilled at a approved refilling site

Typically the retailers just stores the empty ones and it gets loaded onto the delivery truck and returned to the refiners site

Normally in Europe , you are not anywhere near a refilling site , so you typically buy ( exchange) at a local supermarket , hardware store , petrol filling station etc ,just as the locals do

And even if you're lucky enough to find a site that is licensed and equipped to refill on the spot, they may be unwilling to do so for a walk-in customer. Or they'll look at your tank and say "I don't think I'm allowed to touch that style." Or "I think those are illegal," even though you have the thing's test certificate, and it's stamped by the proper authorities, but someone once told the guy at the desk that fibreglass tanks were illegal, so that's what he's enforcing.


I've had a very cheap & easy time with cylinder exchange using 33lb aluminum cylinders for the forklift, and they can be mounted horizontally. Unfortunately they're too tall for my boat's gas lockers.

[Boatguy30]

Only place I have seen where people use LPG like the OP suggested is Panama. 25lb exchange is $5.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

the local retailers can't refill , so they keep a store of full ones and you return your empty one they are then refilled at a approved refilling site

Typically the retailers just stores the empty ones and it gets loaded onto the delivery truck and returned to the refiners site

Normally in Europe , you are not anywhere near a refilling site , so you typically buy ( exchange) at a local supermarket , hardware store , petrol filling station etc ,just as the locals do

Thanks! I guess we are just spoiled this side of the pond.

[Sailmonkey]

Decanting seems to be the way to go...out of sight of the authorities I suppose

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Ifitsworthdoing

Am preparing to get my head around the practicalities of the above, especially in Europe/the Med https://www.cruisersforum.com/images...n_rolleyes.gif. I anticipate cooking with gas, possibly running a central heating/air conditioning unit on it, and likely also both a GenSet and the dinghy outboard.

For the dinghy, gasoline will be your preferred fuel for reasons of availability and ease of transfer between tanks.


For the genset and for heating, diesel will be your preferred fuel for reasons of safety, availability, and ease of transfer. For heating look at Espar and Wallas


LP gas is more difficult to replace for cooking, but for cooking the fuel usage is lower (c.f. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...se-238878.html) making the logistics more manageable.



Most cruisers use aluminum LP tanks with a capacity of 4.5 kg or 10 pounds because they are corrosion resistant and fit in available locker space. Composite cylinders have a mixed safety record and typically cannot be filled outside the country where they were initially sold. Steel cylinders pose rust problems. Horizontal cylinders pose their own practical and compliance problems and only make sense on boats where nothing else fits the space properly.

[barnakiel]

Europe does not have one cylinder that would work everywhere. Spain alone has 3 different fittings plus Campingaz fitting.


We simply take local cylinders in lease and we prefer the plastic ones - they do not corrode and they are lighter to carry.


Here we have 6 and 12 liter units, and I vote for the smaller ones - gas comes more expensive but I can easily remove and replace them and also carry them to the station in a backpack, should the case be.




The wort type are Campingaz. Outrageously expensive and corrode fast. But damn simple to swap anywhere in the EU (and Caribbean).



b.

[Ifitsworthdoing]

Originally Posted by Jammer

For the dinghy, gasoline will be your preferred fuel for reasons of availability and ease of transfer between tanks.


For the genset and for heating, diesel will be your preferred fuel for reasons of safety, availability, and ease of transfer. For heating look at Espar and Wallas


LP gas is more difficult to replace for cooking, but for cooking the fuel usage is lower (c.f. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...se-238878.html) making the logistics more manageable.



Most cruisers use aluminum LP tanks with a capacity of 4.5 kg or 10 pounds because they are corrosion resistant and fit in available locker space. Composite cylinders have a mixed safety record and typically cannot be filled outside the country where they were initially sold. Steel cylinders pose rust problems. Horizontal cylinders pose their own practical and compliance problems and only make sense on boats where nothing else fits the space properly.

Thank you Jammer for the handy summary! My main reason to try to replace gasoline/petrol with LPG/propane is environmental. The challenge for me (and many others) is to minimalise and rationalise the bandwidth of fuels I need to carry onboard ...

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Ifitsworthdoing

Thank you Jammer for the handy summary! My main reason to try to replace gasoline/petrol with LPG/propane is environmental. The challenge for me (and many others) is to minimalise and rationalise the bandwidth of fuels I need to carry onboard ...

...you're welcome... ...nod...


I am not certain that the environmental footprint of propane is materially different than gasoline. NOx emissions would be higher as there is no oxygenate blended with it. Production process and feedstocks are largely the same as for gasoline. I lived through the propane-as-automotive-fuel fad in the 1970s. Propane will usually result in fewer unburned hydrocarbons and CO but modern 4-stroke gasoline engines are already very good in these areas.



Let's talk about the advantages propane has as a fuel for dinghy.

• LPG can be stored indefinitely without degrading, under any reasonable conditions of temperature, humidity, sun exposure, etc.
• Engines that use propane fuel do not use a carburetor as such, not one that vaporizes fuel at least. The zero-pressure regulator and cutoff valve that is used instead is much more reliable, eliminating a common point of failure.
• Though most people don't use a dinghy in cold weather, propane will generally work better, particularly so when considering gasoline bought during the summer as the formulations are seasonal.

Drawbacks.

• It is difficult to determine the fuel level in most cases, since few tanks have float gauges, and those that do are expensive. Tanks can be weighed, or you can pour hot water down the side and look/feel for the temperature change point, but these are awkward methods.
• At best, it is awkward to transfer fuel between containers, which means you end up paying to refill partially empty cylinders, or try to switch them to galley service -- unless you run until the cylinder is completely empty and switch at that point, which poses its own problems.
• As noted upthread, propane fills are possible -- but problematic -- to obtain while cruising. I will add that even on land in the USA, portable cylinder fills have become harder to get since many dealers have exited the business due to competition from the bottle-exchange programs.
• Generally, propane is the more expensive fuel compared to gasoline, when purchased in small cylinders. (Bulk prices for propane are much better, for propane delivered into 500 gallon or 1000 gallon tanks)

Ultimately what that means is that aside from a few specialized situations, it doesn't make sense. For example, propane works out well as a fuel for permanently installed standby electrical generators because it keeps indefinitely. It also works out well for boat motors used in standby/occasional service, as for duck hunting, or a rarely used cabin, or as a spare smaller motor.


Finally, there is the matter of safety. Propane poses a frostbite risk and also explosion risk, with this last being acute on boats where accumulation of propane in bilges is a particular hazard.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Ifitsworthdoing

Thank you Jammer for the handy summary! My main reason to try to replace gasoline/petrol with LPG/propane is environmental. The challenge for me (and many others) is to minimalise and rationalise the bandwidth of fuels I need to carry onboard ...

Imho you’d be better going all diesel with an electric outboard and electric heat/galley.

The amount of time/energy/fuel you’ll expend in most locales locating propane refills will outweigh any perceived environmental benefit.

[Albinvega27]

Propane in Europe is a real puzzle. Have already 3 tanks and this because of passing 3 yountries (D/NL/ F). They all fit but once empty, they only refill their own. That´s a tricky thing. I prefer the alcohol stove on my other boat. never have a problem to find industrial alcohol...
And pls nobody answers me to refill because all fit. No German touches a tank from another country than Germany. They do not crake laws. It´s against culture. In Holland? They do not refill German tanks. It´s like buying Dutch Army a German Tank (Anne Frank is still very alive). And France? Please? The most common French response to almost everything unusual is "Cest ne pas possible, Monsieur"... Good luck with ylour propane in Europe....

[argold57]

I hope this thread is still active:

My Bavaria CC has a propane locker in the swim steps that fits only the 11 lb 9.1 in x 16. 8 in cylinder. 10 years ago I had a composite tank but that manufacturer recalled all their products and went bankrupt. Now the ONLY choice seems to be the steel tanks and I have replaced 2 of them so far and need to replace the third.

I really want to go back to a composite tank but have not found one that fits the locker. I cannot find an aluminum that fits either!

Any advice is welcome. I'm now thinking of buying another steel one and painting it with acid etch primer to adhere to the powder coat and then topping with epoxy. I only need to do this for the bottom third of the cylinder, I think.

[Pete7]

Are the tanks sitting in water contributing to the rust?

Pete

[wingssail]

We have used propane for cooking and hot water for 35 years. We use aluminum tanks, 4.5 kg, we have two. The latest pair were sand blasted and powder coated when new and have lasted 13 years, look a bit scruffy, but still serviceable and refillable. This approach might extend the life of your steel tanks.

We have never taken the precautions recommended by Roland Stockham, they seem a bit alarmist to me.

We have found propane generally available for refilling in the Americas, the Pacific, Asia, the Indian Ocean, Africa, the South Atlantic, and the Caribbean. We have not been to Europe on the boat. There have been times when we took our empty bottle to the filling station in a shopping bag on the bus. Propane is generally very cheap. Here in Mexico it cost about $4.50 to refill our bottles. Since we cook with it, including the BBQ, and heat water with it we use a lot, about 6kg a month.

For the rare place where we could not get our tanks refilled we occasionally purchased an exchangeable tank and decanted the gas into our tanks. We have been able to return the tank for a refund when we left or gave it to another cruiser. We have accumulated a variety of fittings and adapters.

[Kalinka1]

For what it's worth. Canadian boat. Canadian bottles to start. Could not get refilled anywhere is Southern Ireland!. Purchased a regulator got an old bottle from the boat yard exchanged it for a 13KG bottle. Bottle fits nicely between two braces for the wind vane. So no locker needed! Northern Ireland and UK different valve! purchased another regulator and was lucky to be able to exchange the bottle! Northern Norway was able to get the bottle filled at a camp ground. When and If we can get to Europe will switch to the Camp gaz and get another regulator. Regulators were less than $20.00 Canadian so about US .75cents!

[HopCar]

Trident makes an 11 pound fiberglass tank that is 12” in diameter and 15-1/4” high.
They also sell six different sizes of aluminum tanks. The 10 pound is close.
https://tridentmarine.com/product/tr.../#.YM_H1y33af0