USCG rescue dismasted Beneteau Oceanis 39 from Alex

[capn_billl]

Last quarter backing.

This is why MY boat is mothballed until the Atlantic high shrinks above my latitude in the fall.

[Joli]

That sucks, glad no one was hurt.
How old was the rigging? It shouldn't have come down in 40 knots or 12' waves.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Lionshooter

40 K winds and 10' seas? Hell, that's an exciting Sunday afternoon in my book.
All joking aside, that can get very serious, very quickly. I got in that Nor'easter off Hatteras that took down the 54' Trashman and 40' Vera and their 5 crew in October 1980. Left out of Beaufort headed for the Abacos. We didn't have electronics in those days and it caught everyone by surprise. Winds built to 50k and waves were as high as 40' according to USCG. Every wave had to be navigated to assure we didn't get broadsided and rolled. My mate Robert and I sailed it all afternoon and night for 18 hours in a Spirit 23, bare poles except for my storm sail. Drogue deployed. Cabin top and companionway lashed tightly to the toe rail. Life raft/dinghy doubly secured. The ocean was just a sea of white foam as far as one could see.
Very little in this life can scare me but that storm did. In my log I wrote, "I doubt I'll ever see my wife and kids again."
The boat, captain and first mate survived and eventually made it to West End.

I too have been south of Hatteras in near 40 knot winds against the stream. The seas were bigger than 10-12 for sure, but the real problem was how steep they were. our 47 footer did well, but leaked streams in places we didnt know we had places.... Green water was covering the 47 footer regularly.

Eventually we just had to run with it making little headway but less inundated. Winds were not predicted to be that high at all. It suddenly changed.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Me too.

That was my first thought, "close hauled in a tropical storm, are they nuts?".

I think it's time to review a few word definitions.

"Average" means Average. if the average wave is 20ft, some waves will ne little tiny, some will be double that. Right. Average waves may be twice the height and the smaller ones, ha and wind strength up to 40% stronger than the average.

I'm more convinced running downwind is the most survivable, at least in the 30-50knot range, and I hope to never be out in anything more than that. Agree. And running off with his storm jib only (for control, and only if his storm jib was really small enough--our sailmaker says it should be 40 %, not the 65% they are often made).

2 days to make up loss from a storm isn't bad, I keep well more stores than that on an ocean voyage. Yes, he who sails and runs away, lives to sail another day.

I also have both a Sea Anchor, and drogue on board, and I'm buying a better drogue, I don't like the one I've got.

I know we are monday morning quarterbacking here, but seriously, close hauled in 45knots?

Yes, seriously, close hauled on a hull shape with little "bite" forward, but going to windward only as fast as to retain control of steerage (for us this is about 3 kn), can be not too uncomfortable because the heel angle is much more stable and the main motion is only up and down. This allows you to make [albeit slow] progress in the right direction, rather than going back to Florida, and is often a lot slower than the rate of travel of the storm (so it will still go by "soon"). Also, with an out of season, predicted named storm coming towards us, we have had beat to the only safe hurricane hole, into such winds, and you do what you have to do, for the sake of the boat and the crew.

Years ago, in Jim's Yankee (30 footer), when we were overtaken by Tropical Storm Gil, on the way to Hawaii, we did our fastest ever day's run, under storm jib alone, downwind, in average 45 knot conditions. Mind you, Jim had strengthened the hull in that boat. So I agree that running off can be the best plan, but with the idea that it is a skipper decision, when to run off, if you're doing okay with a different plan. It is only an opinion, but I do think the skipper of the vessel might well have done better to run off, in the case of this thread, so the question is in ascertaining exactly how and when, lacking a drogue, he should have done it. I bet he is having nightmares about it -- I would be.

I also think he made absolutely the correct decision to call for rescue. All the port lights blown out, all the hatches, and the companionway, and with the batteries sliding around trying to kill them. Absolutely hell on a boat.

If he had had it, a Jordan Series Drogue might have saved the boat, as long as the companionway hatch didn't give way if they took a breaking wave over the stern. Mostly, the boat would be making a slick, which would leave a safe place to bob up and down on the waves, while still making some way. if you've ever read old sea stories you've come across using oil to help create a slick.

If one were to try to lie to a sea anchor, I would think that would work best with a full keeled boat, where the keel would help the boat point into the wind. The Pardeys wrote of a storm tactic where the deployed a sea anchor off the bow, close to the boat, using the spinnaker pole, guyed fore and aft, to locate the anchor right next to the boat, to keep the bows up, and the boat stopped. The danger is that with a stopped boat, then sliding backwards down the wave, if the rudder is not secured really well, you could easily break the rudder. ("Ramtha", a catamaran caught in the Queen's Birthday Storm between NZ and Tonga in '94, lost both rudders lying to a sea anchor. I'm sure you could Google the NZ report on the Storm and get more details.)

It was 10 days for the Bene, and the skipper reported that the hurricane's track did not go where it was expected to. Weather forecasting, imo, is only good for the first 3 days, then gets farther out. This is because weather is very complex, and the models for it are imperfect--nobody's fault, it is what it is. This happens more often than one might think, and it is still possible to get caught in a hurricane or even a sudden severe thunderstorm. Losing a boat, and it would have sunk with its next roll over, is a terribly humbling thing, and the poor guy is going to be second guessing himself for a long time to come. He has all my sympathy.

Ann

Just a note here. I don't know how much experience this skipper had. And experience is a big factor in deciding when to take survival measures. For Jim, he has well over 150,000 sea miles, but also he raced three of his boats in ocean racing for some years; he had also experienced dismasting; and before we left the US, we practiced in storm conditions in San Francisco Bay. So, I was blessed with a highly experienced skipper before we ever left.

[Renoirpierre]

I have pretty limited heavy weather experience. Out once in 30-35 knots. I have read that in heavy weather you want to slow down as much as possible and just "bob" along.

Earlier in this thread there was some advice that close hauled is the wrong point of sail for heavy weather. It seems to me that close-hauled with a deep reef on the main and a storm sail on the 2nd forestay you would be moving as slow as possible, reduced heeling, and would be in a relatively safe position.

Alternative points of sail would include:
beam reach but that would place your beam on the waves, increase heeling, and with the same sail plan would increase speed.

Running/Broad reach - lower apparent speed but much higher SOG, increased risk of surfing down waves (wind is pushing and the boat shape favors surfing forward ahead vs surfing backwards), and most concerning to me would be the risk of the stern being pushed sidways by a wave, healing, losing control of rudder, turning up and broaching.

It seems like close-hauled or forereaching is a much more controllable point of sail assuming that we arent hove to (not sure if that's a point of sail)

Can anyone share with me a better point of sail in a similar situation?

[JPA Cate]

Can anyone share with me a better point of sail in a similar situation?

Running off under the smallest headsail you can deploy is also an alternative. Guys in modern round the world racers just go balls out, and surf like mad through the storms. We can't even begin to know how noisy it is, but it brings the apparent wind down, and they get a real rush out of it.

Ann

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Renoirpierre

I have pretty limited heavy weather experience. Out once in 30-35 knots. I have read that in heavy weather you want to slow down as much as possible and just "bob" along.

Earlier in this thread there was some advice that close hauled is the wrong point of sail for heavy weather. It seems to me that close-hauled with a deep reef on the main and a storm sail on the 2nd forestay you would be moving as slow as possible, reduced heeling, and would be in a relatively safe position.

Alternative points of sail would include:
beam reach but that would place your beam on the waves, increase heeling, and with the same sail plan would increase speed.

Running/Broad reach - lower apparent speed but much higher SOG, increased risk of surfing down waves (wind is pushing and the boat shape favors surfing forward ahead vs surfing backwards), and most concerning to me would be the risk of the stern being pushed sidways by a wave, healing, losing control of rudder, turning up and broaching.

It seems like close-hauled or forereaching is a much more controllable point of sail assuming that we arent hove to (not sure if that's a point of sail)

Can anyone share with me a better point of sail in a similar situation?

It depends on which quadrant of the storm you're in.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Running off under the smallest headsail you can deploy is also an alternative.
Ann

I've only done that once, and it was in far lesser conditions than those guys faced, running down wind from Eureka to Bodega Bay.
We were snugged down and except for some insane rolling in the troughs, (older CCA type design,) it wasn't bad.
Pertaining to this story, I've a feeling that vista-view panoramic windows, (small rabbets with weak frames,) bulkheads that pop loose, (how were those installed,) unsecured gear/stuff of all types, lockers/drawers that won't stay closed and loose floorboards were contributing factors in decision making.
That the hull structure was undergoing excessive flexation is a given regarding the bulkhead(s)/panels.
Expecting a high aspect ratio spade to withstand a 3-second period 360 would be wishful thinking in most cases, and its not like they have a tree trunk for a mast, it's a rather spindly design.
Lots of boat/windage on top of the water, very little underneath.
Remember the Westsail 32 from the Perfect Storm? They got off, the boat was fine, washed ashore and is still sailing.
This old Swan, (lots of boat underwater,) is reaching in ~45>50K and she takes one completely over the boat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp0qvM98pZY

[Renegde_Sailor]

When I see how few screws are holding that companionway track down, it really makes me wonder, that was nowhere near enough to withstand the force of a wave broaching the boat.

I am sure the bleach bottle apologists will be along to defend it, but I am seeing several things on this boat that failed that ought not to have for an offshore boat.

The other lesson to be learned here is to secure your gear, a few latches on cabinets and floorboards, and some better strapping on some batteries could have much changed the outcome for this boat.

It is good that they were able to get rescued, in the situation I think the crew did the right thing popping the EPIRB, and I do not blame them for the boats construction.

It goes back to what an old salt told me when I was first getting started "Plan like your boat is going to get rolled when you stow for sea, so if it happens you won't get hurt!"

[rslifkin]

The limits of when control becomes a problem running off in weather like that will really depend on the boat. Some will handle much higher speeds while surfing then others before control becomes a problem. Bow shape will be a factor too as far as the risk of digging into the next wave and broaching. Ideally, you'd want a hull shape that will plane nicely, but with a somewhat full bow to avoid stuffing it at high speed.

[wholybee]

Ingo is a friend of mine. I've not spoken with him yet, but I've read his account and logs, and there is some miss-information here.

I don't know why he left Florida when he did, but he did. He is an experienced sailor and has been in severe storms before. He has circumnavigated and then some, over 90,000 miles.

He was NOT sailing upwind. He had been earlier, but turned downwind, and had all sail down. Wind was 50+ knots, and he was doing well for 5 or 6 hours without much concern. The swell was behind him, but a rogue wave hit him on the beam. As I understand it, the boat simultaneously spun 360 to port, and rolled completely over in less than 3 seconds. As the boat rolled, it dismasted, blew out the portlights and companionway door. Lifelines and the sails which were secured to them were ripped away. Pushpits were mangled.

The boat was still taking on water, so he deployed the Life raft and EPIRB. He miraculously was able to reach the USCG via handheld VHF. He stayed on the boat for 5 hours until an oil tanker was on-site. Then another 4 hours until the helicopter arrived. I don't believe he ever got in the raft.

Anyway, just wanted clear up, this was a hell of a lot more than 30kts and 10' seas, and he wasn't attempting to sail upwind in it. Certainly, more could have been done, securing batteries, boards over the ports etc, but I seriously doubt many sailing vessels would have survived the pounding he took, and doing those things would not likely have made any difference in the outcome.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by wholybee

… but I seriously doubt many sailing vessels would have survived the pounding he took, and doing those things would not likely have made any difference in the outcome.

Maybe actual BW boats, such as Island Packet, Pacific SeaCraft, or Cabo Rico, etc. Might not have lost the windows/port lights. Metal-framed, tempered glass port lights do not stove in like that.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by Auklet

Maybe actual BW boats, such as Island Packet, Pacific SeaCraft, or Cabo Rico, etc. Might not have lost the windows/port lights. Metal-framed, tempered glass port lights do not stove in like that.

Or through bolted poly-carbonate.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Ingo is a friend of mine. I've not spoken with him yet, but I've read his account and logs, and there is some miss-information here.

I don't know why he left Florida when he did, but he did. He is an experienced sailor and has been in severe storms before. He has circumnavigated and then some, over 90,000 miles.

He was NOT sailing upwind. He had been earlier, but turned downwind, and had all sail down. Wind was 50+ knots, and he was doing well for 5 or 6 hours without much concern. The swell was behind him, but a rogue wave hit him on the beam. As I understand it, the boat simultaneously spun 360 to port, and rolled completely over in less than 3 seconds. As the boat rolled, it dismasted, blew out the portlights and companionway door. Lifelines and the sails which were secured to them were ripped away. Pushpits were mangled.

The boat was still taking on water, so he deployed the Life raft and EPIRB. He miraculously was able to reach the USCG via handheld VHF. He stayed on the boat for 5 hours until an oil tanker was on-site. Then another 4 hours until the helicopter arrived. I don't believe he ever got in the raft.

Anyway, just wanted clear up, this was a hell of a lot more than 30kts and 10' seas, and he wasn't attempting to sail upwind in it. Certainly, more could have been done, securing batteries, boards over the ports etc, but I seriously doubt many sailing vessels would have survived the pounding he took, and doing those things would not likely have made any difference in the outcome.

Is it known where they were relative to the center of the storm? If they were in the NE quadrant they would have had to sail upwind on starboard tack to not be drawn into the storm.

[hpeer]

There is another long thread about a boat lost approaching NZ and the subsequent NZ requirement that all off shore boats have windown boards FITTED before making passage.

There seem to be rough similarities in that both boats were hit by exceptional waves, the hulks flexed, windows popped out.

I am somewhat skeptical that the fitted board requirement makes a significant difference. There seems to be no standard for what the boards are or how the are attached. I would not be surprised that the forces which popped out the windows would also pop or rip out boards, unless the boards were very securely fastened, which probably means through bolted with backing washers. Even then the bolts could rip through the fiberglass if too near the edge. Interestingly a hatch was also popped open but could be reclosed.

I am fortunate that we have no windows, but lots of port lights and 4 hatches. Also our boat, being steel, is structurally very stiff, I have never experienced any noticeable flex. Not even any discernable flexing noise, although when it is sloppy it is damn noisy.

The PO of my small boat was aboard a Ericson 39 caught in a storm. His account was that the storm was survivable except the boat was breaking up, bulkhead detaching, etc. His comment was "I wished we were on Chouette, she would have been fine" Chouette being my 33' steel cutter I had bought from him. They were taken off by an ore carrier, I drove his Wife to the dock to retrieve him and witnessed the two crews say goodbye. Quite an emotional experience, just to watch.

It strikes me that many modern production boats have made dock appeal compromises. Which is fine and good as long as the Owner understands the consequence of those choices.

Many folks would consider our boat a "cave" and would be appaled at living aboard as we do. It works for us. Likewise we would be appaled at making a passage where storm conditions may be encountered on a boat with largish windows (many pilot house and deck saloon boats) or flexible hulls.

And thank goodness our Nanny State has not encroached this far into our lives.