The loss of Kokopelli

[slug]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Saddened to hear of the loss of the vessel, gladdened to hear the couple are safe.

I am wondering if the marine industry has begun to use the fire retardent enhancement additives to the resins which compositions have become standard in architectural fiber glass and / or have implemented safety standards as to lower flame spread ratings, mitigation against self propagation of the flames / self extinguishing, and reduced smoke density. Seemingly vessels should be able to be constructed such that they don't burn down to the waterline. For example, built to Class A rating.

Perhaps using fire proof fabrics as barriers.

Unrelated to the marine sector but indicative of progression of enhanced fire resistant polymers.

Current International Building Codes (IBC) allows expanded uses of fire retardant FRP composites for building construction. Third party labeling and correct uses of FRP allow the material to be installed in areas that were prohibited by older versions of the code.

The current Section 2612 of the code falls within Chapter 26, entitled "Plastics". The code spells out specific tests that must be passed for multi-story use, radiant heat, flame spread and smoke development. Prior to 2009, FRP products were not recognized in the IBC, falling into the general category of Plastics which limited the use of FRP on building facades. Past limitations included the use of FRP only at heights below 40 feet. The current code addresses that fire retardant fiberglass can be used in all areas of construction when used in accordance to the code requirements.

You can build fire resistant boats

The problem is cost

Full compliance could double the price of a small yacht

[a64pilot]

We manufactured an aircraft that had a lot of fiberglass components, fiberglass is pretty common on aircraft now especially for complex fairings as you can mold it but making a wingtip or wing root fairing out of metal is hard.
The fiberglass resin used has to be at least fire resistant and I believe it’s not as cheap, but I bet it would probably blister on a hull or something, you have give you something for that fire resistance I’m sure.

Personally I believe if you wanted to require fire resistance, you would be better to require it in fabrics and head liners etc. Sunbrella Bimini’s apparently go up like a torch for example. I’ve read it goes so fast it’s like an explosion. The Bimini catches and I think you have about 1 sec to dive in the water if your in the cockpit or if your below your not going out the companionway.

[Mito430]

Back in 2001 we came so close to loosing our Voyage cat "Duetto" The installation of the generator in Cape Town ran the battery cable to the Fischer Panda generator too close the the block of the generator and it chafed thru and burnt up the wiring and started the fiberglass bulkhead forward of the engine room on fire. Fortunately I had the engine hatch open at the time and saw it happen and was able to dump my fire extinguisher on it and go into the aft head and ind the mastery battery switch by braille as the smoke was so thick. We were anchored off ST John in the USVI at the time and fortunately a USCG Cutter was anchored about 1/2 mile astern. After we issued a Pan-Pan they had a RIB along side up with a BIG fire bottle, but fortunately I had it under control. They said if it had gone undetected for a couple minutes we would have lost the boat! We were able to proceed to West End, BVI on one engine, as all the wiring on the starboard side was burnt up. Voyage took care of it under warranty and we were underway in three weeks! Very fortunate it didn't happen on our passage from Cape Town to Tobago!

[merrydolphin]

I do not know the people. My heart goes out to them and thank God that they are safe. However I do believe their boat was a Cal 2-46. I lived aboard and cruised mine for 7 yrs. It’s one of the best cruising live aboards ever made. But ALL boats can burn. The more complex and old they are the more chance. Mine was a 1973. They are all of that general vintage. And especially ones that are serious cruise equipped, they are quite complex. I wouldn’t begin to even try and speculate what caused it. What’s important is that they got out alive!

[Giro]

Many years ago our little 25 foot sailboat was quickly set ablaze at the port side companion way bulk head. When she was manufactured, the builders attached a polyester “headliner” that extended from the ceiling of the V- berth aft down to the bulkhead mentioned. We still own the boat and recently had her completely restored. With one exception. That stupid polyester headliner! It now has a rock hard paint covering all the surfaces the headliner once was. All the thrubolts are nicely covered with shiny acorn nuts and couldn’t look better. Thank God for dry powder fire extinguishers and damn all marine, alcohol stoves.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by slug

You can build fire resistant boats

Indeed you can. The USN and USCG specifications for FRP boats (indeed all vessels) require extensive use of fire resistant materials.

[SVHarmonie]

Originally Posted by slug

You can build fire resistant boats

The problem is cost

Full compliance could double the price of a small yacht

I am not at all sure where you come up with the number of "double the cost". It is pretty widely accepted that the hull is about 10% of the cost of a yacht. To double the cost of the overall boat, you'd have to increase the cost of the hull by... oh... 1,000% Seems more than a bit unlikely...

But aside from the actual cost... how quickly we all forget... It is easy to say, "Build a boat out of fire retardent resin." So easy to say...

Valiant built boats with fire retardant resins beginning in 1976... resulting in a generation of their boats that have been plagued by the worst blistering problem the industry has ever seen. You think that might, maybe, put off some other builders from going that route?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and this well intentioned change sure took Valiant to hell.

Sometimes what seems like a good idea has consequences that are worse than the cure.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by SVHarmonie

Valiant built boats with fire retardant resins beginning in 1976... resulting in a generation of their boats that have been plagued by the worst blistering problem the industry has ever seen. You think that might, maybe, put off some other builders from going that route?

Actually that is the story of the famous Uniflite "boat pox" issue. They built the Valiant hulls - and had the same problem with their own hulls during the same period. They had built fire retardant hulls earlier with no issues, and also later. During the problem period in the middle to late 70's they used a fire resistant resin formulation which had an unexpected and unfortunate side effect. They used it because they had to use a fire resistant resin in their government contract boats such as the famous 31' river patrol boat (i.e. swift boat).

[Boatguy30]

Valiant was owned by Uniflite and they built a lot of government boats hence the fire retardant resin. I don't believe it was intentional for the yacht market, was always my understanding that they had plenty of government bought resin around.

[bstreep]

We have both halon and 2 ports (ports recently added). And about 10 extinguishers. Conveniently located just about everywhere. I need a big one too, I'm thinking.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by bstreep

We have both halon and 2 ports (ports recently added). And about 10 extinguishers. Conveniently located just about everywhere. I need a big one too, I'm thinking.

I bought I believe it’s a 10 lb Halotron, it has a hose with a small nozzle that will fit though the fire port. I have several dry chemical ones but don’t expect to ever use them. Halotron is only half as effective as Halon per lb, but without the environmental concerns, and therefore is way less than half as expensive. Best price I could find was from a restaurant supply house on line.
Halon hasn’t been manufactured in the US for a long time, so all there is is recycled, and every year it gets much more expensive.
I have three automatic Halon’s, one in the engine compt, one in the lazarette with the generator, and the third behind the electrical panel as that’s where a lot of fires start.
Then I have two handheld small Halon’s one right beside of the engine compt, and one in our Stateroom right beside where I sleep. Those are aircraft fire extinguishers, not that there is a difference, just it’s a way to buy Halon now.
Then I leave 50’ of hose connected to a spigot in the cockpit thats plumbed into the fresh water system. I think often that plain ole water can be very effective if a fire gets into the cushions etc.

I got trapped under a farm tractor when I was younger and got burned, so fire scares me more than most.

[RUSTYNAIL]

I am very sorry to hear about the loss of such a beautiful boat. Tomorrow I will go repack my ditch bag and make sure the 406 PLB is tested. I hope we all learn how little time we have to get into a dinghy or life raft when a fire gets out of control.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

For this reason we have installed automatic fire extinguishers in both engine compartments and at the nav station where the batteries, solar controller and inverter live. The hope is that, even if the automatic extinguishers do not completely extinguish the fire, they will give us time to bring the 10lb manual extinguishers into play.

Same. The auto extinguishers trigger from heat or flame and will suppress/slow down the fire, which is important for non-living space fire locations.

[exMaggieDrum]

Our since condolences to the folks on Kokopelli. What an enormous tragedy. On our cruises it was always the worst case scenario to hope never happened. I won't try and play arm-chair skipper and pretend that I know what they should have done before or during. Lots of scenarios possible and none of us will know any of those. Generators (whether gas or diesel) can also create high current outputs so they are also capable of starting electrical fires. I hope that none of you have gas powered generators in your engine rooms though. I can't remember seeing a gasoline powered generator in the engine room in the many recreational boats I used to work on. Why you wouldn't just use the diesel right there would be a big question.



I have rewired a couple of boats with engine room fires. In both cases it was caused by loose alternator cables. When the cables get hot (and it doesn't have to be right at the engine). It can be along the route of the cabling which in most cases means secured to fiberglass which can get hot quick, and, as noted burns really hot and really fast with volumes of "kill you" toxic gas. It is very, very difficult to extinguish even with a temporary smothering from a Halon system which will stop combustion for the time it is there. As soon as air gets in and the combustibles are still hot enough, the fire will start right up again. But if there is an alarm it does give you time to cut off all electrical circuits (which the skipper did) and may be stop the energy source.



I don't know that is what happened here and can't even begin to speculate. I know on our boat I was always nervous about the alternator cabling since it is usually the only source of high currents. Of course other things can get hot, like the engine elbow before the water injection or after if the water quits going in.



I actually removed a large automatic Halon system that came with the last boat. I was huge and it prevented me from easily (meaning that it was almost impossible) to get to routine engine maintenance places including the back of the alternator. I decided I had greater risks of loss or catastrophic damage from not being able to service and check the engine. The PO liked it though but he may have had second thoughts after it was installed.


I hope the crew can pull things back together in their lives with the least pain possible. I can only try to imagine how emotionally damaging that is and will be, not to mention financially. All of us hope we never have to deal with it. Fortunately they were close in, in warmer waters, not in a big storm, and still had communication ability.

[a64pilot]

If I’m not mistaken the whole idea of a gas powered generator was pure speculation by a member.

I figure that if the engine is running, the majority of the Halon will go right out the exhaust as the engine winds down, so I would need at least one more extinguisher to flood the compt when the exhaust fan and motor are off.
Then as Halon and I assume any liquified gas is heavier than air, it’s going to disperse through the bilge anyway pretty quickly, so get a BIG extinguisher, size counts

If anyone removes any Halon extinguisher, be sure it’s recycled. Halon recycling is the best and most effective type in my opinion, it’s valuable, so only a fool wouldn’t recycle it as it pays well.

Halon is recovered and recycled so efficiently in the US there is expected to be a 40 yr supply in existence, however of course it becomes more and more expensive as the supply dwindles, making it less and less attractive