Sailing boat overrun by motoryacht, deadly accident

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Well, the sailors could have stayed home. Or changed their schedule for the day...

Assume that the reports are correct - that the sailboat was travelling starboard to port (doesn't matter whether they were sailing or motoring), and so their first required action is to stand on. So that eats some time. Then it becomes apparent that the motorboat is still on a collision course... what does one do, in the very limited time remaining? Wave? Radio? Horn? Change course?

I think it's very possible that a competent and sober skipper could still be caught out in this unlikely and tragic situation. The colregs don't require every skipper to be as skilled as Dennis bloody Conner doing the Americas Cup.

So, yeah, in the rare case of a sailboat being run down by an unattended motorboat at speed, I think it's distinctly possible that one could reasonably meet their colregs obligations and still get hit.

Even when you're stand on, you are not obligated to stand on into danger. If it's clear the other vessel isn't reacting, you're supposed to adjust course before things get close enough that you can no longer avoid the collision.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Even when you're stand on, you are not obligated to stand on into danger. If it's clear the other vessel isn't reacting, you're supposed to adjust course before things get close enough that you can no longer avoid the collision.

Of course not. But how long as stand-on does one go before determining that they're still in danger? I and others have met enough unyielding or slow-reacting powerboaters to know that it's tough to decide when one must take evasive maneuvers.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Of course not. But how long into stand-on does one go before determining that they're still in danger? I and others have met enough unyielding or slow-reacting powerboaters to know that it's tough to decide when one must take evasive maneuvers.

It would be based on how much time or distance you need to resolve the situation (assuming the other boat is an idiot and isn't going to respond as expected). So depending on the speed and maneuverability of the stand on vessel, that decision could be made 3/4 of a mile out, or it may be 1/4 mile out. It's basically a cutoff point of "if the other guy hasn't reacted as expected and this is still a problem by X point, I'll turn."

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

So depending on the speed and maneuverability of the stand on vessel, that decision could be made 3/4 of a mile out, or it may be 1/4 mile out. It's basically a cutoff point of "if the other guy hasn't reacted as expected and this is still a problem by X point, I'll turn."

That's ridiculous. When there's such an asymmetry in speeds, interactions between recreational boats are impossible to accurately assess at 3/4 nm, and are just possible at 1/4 nm.

If you're suggesting that all sailors must sh!t a brick whenever a speeding powerboat is within 3/4 of a nm, then we have different concepts of what constitutes reasonable behaviour.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

That's ridiculous. When there's such an asymmetry in speeds, interactions between recreational boats are impossible to accurately assess at 3/4 nm, and are just possible at 1/4 nm.

If you're suggesting that all sailors must sh!t a brick whenever a speeding powerboat is within 3/4 of a nm, then we have different concepts of what constitutes reasonable behaviour.

If you seriously think that you can't identify whether a boat is on a course that's likely to be conflicting (or at least too close for comfort) until you're 1/4 mile away then holy crap I hope I never get near you on the lake. In crowded situations, yes, decisions tend to be made much closer. But in open water with not much traffic it's not uncommon for me to be paying attention to another boat (and their course) from a few miles away.

Plus, the distances I gave were just examples. It all comes down to how much time you need on your specific boat to be able to cover adequate distance to resolve the conflict once you've turned. If you turn, but only move 100 feet before the other guy arrives and miss him by inches, I'd say you waited way too long to turn.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

If you seriously think that you can't identify whether a boat is on a course that's likely to be conflicting (or at least too close for comfort) until you're 1/4 mile away then holy crap I hope I never get near you on the lake.

Of course I can detect a potentially conflicting course further out. Do I have to go into evasion mode with every powerboat heading towards me at 3/4 nm out?

That IS my central point: on the open lake, powerboats should give sailboats and other slow craft an obvious wide berth. If a two-degree turn of the wheel wipes out any chance of a colregs situation with a slower boat, just do that.

Plus, the distances I gave were just examples. It all comes down to how much time you need on your specific boat to be able to cover adequate distance to resolve the conflict once you've turned. If you turn, but only move 100 feet before the other guy arrives and miss him by inches, I'd say you waited way too long to turn.

There it is, folks. Bow down, yield before the mighty and fast. If they pass uncomfortably close... it's your fault, you weak and slow ones.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Of course I can detect a conflicting course further out. Do I have to go into evasion mode with every powerboat heading towards me at 3/4 nm out?

That IS my central point: on the open lake, powerboats should give sailboats and other slow craft an obvious wide berth. If a two-degree turn of the wheel wipes out any chance of a colregs situation with a slower boat, just do that.

There it is, folks. Bow down, yield before the mighty and fast. If they pass uncomfortably close... it's your fault, you weak and slow ones.

Absolutely agreed, they should give you space. But if it's looking like they aren't going to, then you should do something about it before you're trapped in an uncomfortably close situation that you no longer have time to escape from. Unfortunately there are way too many idiots that just see any boat going slower than them as something that should move out of their way.

[alctel]

Originally Posted by wyb2

You can learn a lot about a person by watching which hills they choose to die on. In this case one crew appears completely negligent, while the other appears to have made some mistakes. But the thing you need to convince us all of is that there’s plenty of blame on both sides. Have you thought about why that’s so important to you?

Have you thought about why it’s important to you that when a pedestrian gets hit by a car, it must be the pedestrians fault?

It's also completely wrong, even in my tiny town we lose a couple of people a year to getting hit by cars, despite them only crossing when the light is green, standing still on the pavement or even in one case, waiting at a bus stop.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Of course not. But how long as stand-on does one go before determining that they're still in danger? I and others have met enough unyielding or slow-reacting powerboaters to know that it's tough to decide when one must take evasive maneuvers.

1. Fortunately Colregs gives the stand on skipper some latitude in that. It states, "The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision...as soon as it is apparent to her that [the other vessel] is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these rules".

In other words you, as operator of a sailboat, may take avoiding action as soon as YOU deem it required by the other boat's inaction. Don't let the officer of the bridge on that power vessel or commenters in this thread berate you for not standing on. You can take action after you become concerned that the power vessel is not taking action.

2. The power boat is not relieved of her obligation to keep out of the way if the stand on vessel takes action. So the sailboat can do whatever they think is necessary to avoid the collision and the powerboat needs to steer far enough clear so that the can still avoid the sailboat no matter what it does and that includes tacking or bearing away or slowing down.

3. Rule 6, Safe Speed, is pretty clear that "every vessel must at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and can be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions"

4. It's absolutely ridiculous for a power boater to complain that a sailboat turned right in front of him and instead should have anticipated the powerboat's intended path and stayed out of it. And in the case of the deadly accident we can only surmise by the apparent course change that the sailboat was attempting to do something to get out of the way, even if it wound up being the wrong move.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Rules like colregs set up a process, a series of prescriptions that help normal, attentive boaters avoid collisions. Should the sailboat crew have been running radar, watching AIS, have lookouts posted at the 4 compass points?

Well, yes. Although a single lookout would likely have sufficed.

(By coincidence, earlier today I was midway through an intersection during which time a group of pedestrians chatting on the sidewalk decided to blithely stroll across the street on the far side without even casting a glance towards traffic. They rely on the cars to stop, and most of the time it works.)

From 30 minutes out (under 20 miles), the geometry of the crossing should have been obvious on AIS. From 15 minutes out (under 10 miles), it should have been visible, or very close to visible on radar (depending on what range the display was set to). From 7 minutes there should have been visual awareness, meaning the presence of the other vessel should have been no surprise at all.

As to speed differentials, here on the Bay there are a decent number of fast passenger ferries, and a quick check suggests they do 26-30 knots. And yet, I'm somehow able to spot them in the distance and determine which ones merit a closer watch. The magic of electronics makes it even simpler to detect trouble.

To be hit after pulling a 180 suggests either surprised awareness in the final 20-30 seconds, or deliberately standing on into danger. I wouldn't be particularly surprised if neither boat had been maintaining a watch at all.

[JPA Cate]

Almost always MAKE YOUR EVADING MOVE TO STARBOARD; and make it large enough that if the overtaking motor yacht pilot can tell you made a significant course change. We've had to do this in the open ocean, with a large ship. It had been a rough night, and the genoa had washed partly overboard, though it was tied on. We were fighting it aboard. Had to fire up the engine and MOVE. It really doesn't matter, it's your life, you gotta get the heck out of the way.

I still think the kid should have been taught how to work the autopilot: it would have saves lives if he could push 2 buttons and make a 20 deg. course change. But failure to teach him how to do that or disconnect the a/p, and hand steer, at a slower rate, perhaps, that is on the parents.

Ann

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I would have thought the obvious answer would have had something to do with you being on the water....not the road.

You are correct and I hope no feelings were hurt with my poor comment of Power vessels.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by wingssail

In other words you, as operator of a sailboat, may take avoiding action as soon as YOU deem it required by the other boat's inaction. Don't let the officer of the bridge on that power vessel or commenters in this thread berate you for not standing on. You can take action after you become concerned that the power vessel is not taking action.

Yep; you know your own boat and what's needed to effect a safe crossing were the other vessel to do nothing at all!

For example (plugs some numbers into the phone), to model the situation in this thread, you could open the CPA from 0 m to 0.3 miles if you make your turn when the other boat is still 0.9 miles out (about 1.5 minutes remaining).

Handy math: 6 kts is 3 m/s, so in 90 seconds that's over 270 meters: turn tail and you have 540 meters of space between you and where the impact would have occurred.

This is perhaps not so practical on small lakes with fast boats, but in open water I would be very worried if the TCPA was only a few minutes and nothing had happened yet. I suggest knowing the TCPA is more useful than just having the distance to the other boat, because it gives an idea of how far away you can get should you need to run.

[SeanPatrick]

A number of people have mentioned how difficult it is to judge another vessel's course at large distances. But there is an easy rule which will help you identify a collision risk very quickly - even if the other vessel is just a dot on the horizon, and all you need is your compass. Lodesman hinted at it up-thread:

CBDR ... Constant Bearing, Decreasing Range

If the other vessel is not changing bearing, there are only two possibilities: they are either headed directly toward you, or directly away from you. (Well, technically there is a third possibility*: they could be stationary and you are headed directly at/away from them.) So, any maneuver you make that causes the other vessel's bearing to start changing will prevent a collision. If you have radar, it's even easier ... same rules apply.





*Okay, so there is also a fourth possibility: you are on parallel courses at the exact same speed ... but even if that were the case, the constant distance should tip you off.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I do worry about the big multihulls that are raced offshore by single or doublehanded crews, for they do constitute a risk to innocent vessels, be they sail or power... but they are a rare breed indeed compared to the flocks of 30 knot m/vs.

As long as they transmit AIS and you can receive it you can greatly reduce the risk they pose.

Originally Posted by jipcho

Many folks on these threads point out that sail boaters are often just as irresponsible as power boaters. This is, of course, true. The biggest difference, though, is that sailors at fault are far less likely to cause fatalities.

This is a contradition. If sailboaters are less likely to cause fatalities/injuries, then sail boaters are therefore less irresponsible than power boaters.

This is the same with drunk driver vs drunk pedestrian. Who is more irresponsible?

Originally Posted by Lodesman

When you are a pedestrian, are you incapable of preventing yourself from being run down by cars? They can be going 20-30 times faster than you - must it take a superhuman effort to avoid them?

Yes in many cases when cars are trying to hit people. This is generally an unfair analogy because pedestrians simply have to stay out of the road where on the sea there are not zones that are safe to navigate in to avoid small powerboats.