Sailing boat overrun by motoryacht, deadly accident

[odonnellryan]

My favorite is powerboats that approach you offshore at 3am with hardly any visibility. No AIS. Just a big white light that keeps getting closer to you. Why are you approaching me? I'll adjust course - and you do too. Why? What is the point? To see what I am, I guess? Insane.

This has happened several times to us offshore in the NYC area.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

[*]A speeding powerboat has the most control over its course and speed. A much slower boat can do little to mitigate a potential collision.
:
.

Not always true
Sure, a small powerboat may have more manouverability
But big powerboats not necessarily so
I'm sure even you would agree that your yacht is more manouverable than a barge or freighter yet they are likely travelling faster than you.

Several of my previous sailboats were far more manouverable than our current vessel
Yet I have had sailboats try stupid sh!t with us for no reason at all apart from this "right of way" thing ingrained in some peoples pea brain.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

24,000hrs in my log and I've only ever seen one such cone.
Few sailors seem to know they are required. Same with use of a steaming light.

Same with a "legal" anchor light

[odonnellryan]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Um, holy sh!t.

Open lake, miles to either side of that sailboat, and you still had to run him down. Wow.

We've already discussed "right of way" and how it's not helpful as a concept in colregs. But to continue in this vein - the sailboat didn't "take" right of way... he always had it! It's a SAILBOAT! (as would any slower and/or less maneuverable boat) Why was it necessary to run so close to it?
That's becoming apparent.

But in the hope that not all powerboaters are sociopaths, maybe some will understand the point that it's more than simply discourteous for powerboaters to insist on speeding so close to sailboats. And then yelling colregs and the obligations of "stand on" when a sailboat doesn't follow their expectations in the unnecessary encounter.

When a powerboat speeds close to much slower boats, everything is on the powerboater's terms:

• Its speed (and often size) makes any potential encounters more dangerous
• it dominates any considerations. For slower boats and sailboats, another boat that's 500+ m away is... scenery. But when it's a powerboat bearing down on you. it's now a collision risk.
• A speeding powerboat has the most control over its course and speed. A much slower boat can do little to mitigate a potential collision.
• Be honest - who can make accurate assessments of speed and course of an oncoming boat that far away? Except maybe another speeding powerboat. Funny how powerboaters can make allowances for each other, but not for slower boats.

Scenario: you're in your sailboat, there's a powerboat speeding towards you. As the distance between the two boats decreases, you don't see any change from the powerboat - no course change, no speed reduction. Do you:

A: hold your course and cringe, not knowing if the powerboater has even seen you?
B: turn broadside in the hopes that your motion and greater visibility will elicit some recognition from the powerboater?

(of course neither option was viable in this thread's tragic accident)

Well, of course the colregs legal team will shout A.

I'm advocating for C: it's an a-hole move to speed so close to slower-moving boats. Please don't.

I agree 100%. If you are going 50kn, by the time you see the sailboat (and they see you) you'll be within 8-10m. By the time they can get any idea you're headed directly at them, that distance will be more like 2-3km, at most.

Simple math shows that you will cover that closer distance in about 3-5 minutes. If you are headed directly at the sailboat, and they respond quickly, and accurately, and have favorable conditions, they will be lucky to make half a mile during that time, and that is if everything is perfect. Most likely they can get 1000 feet away from you.

On the other hand, the power boater can just adjust course by a few degrees, if that, and call it a day. Nothing risked.

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Not always true
Sure, a small powerboat may have more manouverability
But big powerboats not necessarily so
I'm sure even you would agree that your yacht is more manouverable than a barge or freighter yet they are likely travelling faster than you.

Several of my previous sailboats were far more manouverable than our current vessel
Yet I have had sailboats try stupid sh!t with us for no reason at all apart from this "right of way" thing ingrained in some peoples pea brain.

The ability to change direction quickly only matters in the final seconds before a collision. Both vessels have a responsibility to take action well before that. Well before that, the faster vessel always has a greater ability to put distance between themselves and the potential collision. See my post above, which does the math for 2min out.

Obviously this only applies to both vessels having unrestricted navigation.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Sure, a small powerboat may have more manouverability
But big powerboats not necessarily so

I'm sure even you would agree that your yacht is more manouverable than a barge or freighter yet they are likely travelling faster than you.

Several of my previous sailboats were far more manouverable than our current vessel

Yet I have had sailboats try stupid sh!t with us for no reason at all apart from this "right of way" thing ingrained in some peoples pea brain.

Yours is not the sort of powerboat that's ever given me grief (or vice versa). Yes some sailors can be a-holes, too.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by odonnellryan

I agree 100%. If you are going 50kn, by the time you see the sailboat (and they see you) you'll be within 8-10m. By the time they can get any idea you're headed directly at them, that distance will be more like 2-3km, at most.

Simple math shows that you will cover that closer distance in about 3-5 minutes. If you are headed directly at the sailboat, and they respond quickly, and accurately, and have favorable conditions, they will be lucky to make half a mile during that time, and that is if everything is perfect. Most likely they can get 1000 feet away from you.

On the other hand, the power boater can just adjust course by a few degrees, if that, and call it a day. Nothing risked.

Confusing mix of units
50kn - > "8-10m" -> 2-3km -> 1000 feet?

Presumably that's eitheer 8-10 miles of 8-10 natuical miles.
Both of which are very dubious when talking about observing from a small powerboat travelling at speed. At 8-10 miles, you'd be very lucky to see the tip of the sailboats mast with powerful binoculars. No chance in a boat travelling that fast.

In reality, you will probably only notice a sailboat at around 5NM or less ( most likely less). That's 6 minutes to impact.
And if the "risk of collission" arises or becomes apparent at 2-3 km, at 93km/h (50 knots) that's 1.5km per minute i.e. 2 minutes at most to impact.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

But to answer your question above - it is very likely a sailboat can avoid a speeding powerboat, if they maintain a good lookout and its actions are commensurate with the situation (speed differential, time to collision, etc.).

The problem for the sailboat is that it is difficult to ascertain whether a particular evasive move will increase or decrease collision risk, due to the speed disparity and the limited time to act. On a sailboat where the cockpit is low to the water, with a really good visual watch, one might expect to identify a potential hazard at around 1 nm. For a power boat closing at 40 knots that provides 90 seconds to decide upon and execute any evasive action. Identifying and predicting the hazard, deciding what to do, and executing a tack or jibe takes 30 seconds at least. So you get maybe a minute. In light airs you maybe get a few hundred feet. Some trig will tell you that you have to identify the course of the powerboat within 5 degrees to choose correctly. That just isn't possible at 1 nm away, even if the powerboat maintains a consistent course.

[ahun]

Originally Posted by Jammer

The problem for the sailboat is that it is difficult to ascertain whether a particular evasive move will increase or decrease collision risk, due to the speed disparity and the limited time to act. On a sailboat where the cockpit is low to the water, with a really good visual watch, one might expect to identify a potential hazard at around 1 nm. For a power boat closing at 40 knots that provides 90 seconds to decide upon and execute any evasive action. Identifying and predicting the hazard, deciding what to do, and executing a tack or jibe takes 30 seconds at least. So you get maybe a minute. In light airs you maybe get a few hundred feet. Some trig will tell you that you have to identify the course of the powerboat within 5 degrees to choose correctly. That just isn't possible at 1 nm away, even if the powerboat maintains a consistent course.

Just like that. And you can imagine the situation, ppl having a good time in the cockpit, sitting around, laughing having a drink god forbid. Then someone looks up, a big white thing is closing down on us. Now everyone is looking, still unconcerned, more like curious. Is that thing going to pass behind or in front of us? Seconds pass, the big white thing becomes a power boat and it looks more and more like it passes way too close. Then the skipper jumps up, trying to call on the radio, nothing. Reaches for the key and starts the engine, puts it in gear and the propeller churns the water. Forward or reverse, it's still hard to decide? Everything takes just a few seconds, but it adds up, and then it's too late. Booom.

[sailormed]

Italian press article concerning this collision.


https://sparkchronicles.com/argentar...-was-motoring/

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Jammer

On a sailboat where the cockpit is low to the water, with a really good visual watch, one might expect to identify a potential hazard at around 1 nm.

...Some trig will tell you that you have to identify the course of the powerboat within 5 degrees to choose correctly. That just isn't possible at 1 nm away, even if the powerboat maintains a consistent course.

If you can't see another vessel at more than 1nm, can you really say you've kept a "really good visual watch"?

There are also other actions that can be taken - sound signal, radio call, etc. You don't have to identify the course of the powerboat - you have to determine if the bearing of the powerboat is changing. You don't have to miss by a mile.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by sailormed

Italian press article concerning this collision.


https://sparkchronicles.com/argentar...-was-motoring/

Appears the sailboat was motorsailing and port in the crossing.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Appears the sailboat was motorsailing and port in the crossing.

Even then looking at the damage inflicted, the power boaters where reckless. They claim sun impeedet visibility but looking how the sailboat looks now they where very much to fast.
If you experience visibility problems you have to reduce speed until you can not harm anyone.

I fail to see why the powerboat has to get so close to sailboat at that speed anyway. It's just a rude and unnecessary thing to do.
Additionally the sailboat was a fairly big boat, so hard to not see even with glare.
I'm very certain the power boaters where distracted by something and not keeping appropriate lookout.

[HeinSdL]

With the accident happening at 17:20 and the power boat apparently steering a course north of north west I'm not sure how they could have been blinded by the sun (three hours before sunset with the sun setting south of north west). And even if they were, how come speed was maintained? Might be difficult to get out of the lousy seamanship conclusion here. Which is anger inducing because that same spot I was also happily motoring along on my boat + family recently.

So going forward I will be a lot more cautious when such powered monstrosities get near me.

And, side note, I do reflect sometimes on the power boating community (stereo typical description of what you see in the med): get to the boat - use car/plane, move the boat - start the engine and cruise as fast as possible, get to shore - step in tender with oversized engine(s), entertainment - get on the jet ski. And all this is a problem: each mode of transport can be very dangerous but require little to no training (except what happens on the road and in the air) and the hurdle to get going on something power driven is minimal. Unlike moving a sailing yacht from A to B.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Even then looking at the damage inflicted, the power boaters where reckless. They claim sun impeedet visibility but looking how the sailboat looks now they where very much to fast.
If you experience visibility problems you have to reduce speed until you can not harm anyone.

I fail to see why the powerboat has to get so close to sailboat at that speed anyway. It's just a rude and unnecessary thing to do.
Additionally the sailboat was a fairly big boat, so hard to not see even with glare.
I'm very certain the power boaters where distracted by something and not keeping appropriate lookout.

There's no doubt the powerboaters were reckless, and clearly not maintaining a lookout. But I'm equally certain the sailboaters were distracted and not keeping an appropriate lookout. There's blame on both.