Sailing boat overrun by motoryacht, deadly accident

[Oeanda]

My home waters are pretty empty compared to most places out there. Most people probably don’t know colregs from coleslaw, and just follow the usual basic rules of thumb and politeness to go around each other.

Even so, if you’re on the shortest path between the main fishing grounds and town, in summer, there are a few sporties who’ll do that thing where they come right up directly on your ass, then blow past you dramatically . It’s not a motor vs sail thing- it’s just a faster vs slower thing. Drunk idiots.

Despite reading this thread from post 1, I can’t see anything much we could do differently when one of these guys screams up on our tail. Basically, we are always going to stand on and hope there’s someone with half a brain driving. Partly it’s just social norms. By the time we decide there’s a real problem, it’s always going to be too late.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You don't know that they didn't maintain a proper lookout, or didn't take reasonable steps. Just wait for the inquest to finally reveal all the facts.

Just as much as you don't know that the powerboat operator didn't maintain a proper lookout or take reasonable steps. But we can make educated guesses.

Having been in a few of these discussions, I don't have much faith that we'll see the resulting investigation brought into this discussion. But by all means, keep your ear to the ground and feel free to post what comes out of DiGIFeMa.

[boatpoker]

A friend of mine was the head investigator for the Marine Division of the Transportation Safety Board of Canada. He was also my original examiner for my first masters ticket when he was with Transport Canada back in the olden days.

Years ago he put me on to this page with Safety Board Reports on Marine Incidents. It is quite enlightening and they pull no punches in these reports. All his friends of many years at Transport Canada would no longer talk to him after he named names in his reports and was not shy about laying blame on their doorstep when warranted.

[Brioche]

A few random observations:

Having dealt with numerous accidents (on and off land and sea) I have noticed that usually there are numerous contributing causes. Read any accident investigation from the NTSB or equivalent in other jurisdictions and there is typically a lot of fault to go around.

In this case we are all of course only speculating until full detailed reports come out, and even those may be inconclusive.

A friend of mine who investigated air accidents observed that it took an awful lot to bring down an airplane -- not just one error, but a long string of errors or faults. The same goes for most boating accidents.

There are some red herrings here. For example, perhaps the sailboat was motorsailing. If so, it may have been the give-way vessel rather than stand on. But being a sailboat it would not have been going particularly fast in any case, and reports suggest it was only going about 6 knots. A motor yacht approaching from a distance probably would not have definitively known the sailboat was motoring also, so while the boats priorities might technically have shifted the motor yacht could not have been certain of that fact.

Rule 6 specifies boats should maintain safe speeds, which are determined by th circumstances. Here, the water was pretty open, but aiming close to another boat produced a situation akin to much more crowded waters. Try sailing in a busy area (like the Hudson River along Manhattan), and the water can be crowded by small sailboats, zipping water taxies, swift ferries, big lumbering barges, and even Coast Guard gunboats rushing here and there. Yet few collisions take place, because everyone is vigilant and most are experienced or professional. In contrast, in open water everyone tends to be pretty relaxed. Under those conditions, you can maintain a good speed (the motor yacht was going pretty fast it seems), but you should not do that when you are near other vessels.

It is a fact of life that sailboats can be unpredictable in their movement. Someone can step on a line and throw a sheet loose, an autopilot may malfunction, or a shift in the wind may cause a crisis. If you have room to stay clear, why not give the sailboat enough space for the unexpected?

Often sailing in cramped conditions, I am appreciative of many power boats, especially the big semi-displacement ones, that drop down speed as they pass me, sparing me their big wakes and also giving us both a little more control over the unexpected. I hope the big ships and tugs are likewise appreciative when I take "early and obvious" action to give them their way.

I also wonder whether autopilot contributed to this situation. Steering by hand, it would be an easy matter upon first seeing a sailboat ahead to change bearing by a point or so in order to give it a wide pass. That slight deflection, begun miles away, would have hardly any impact on progress. But an autopilot, following the straight line to its next waypoint, would bring the two vessels much closer together before human intervention was called for, and at that point there would be less room for error and then every action could become critical.

It is quite possible the sailboat did some things wrong, and even possible that fault could ultimately lie with it. But the bottom line is that a polite power boat giving the sailboat the comfort of a wide berth would have avoided all the other decisions and errors that led to the crash.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Brioche

There are some red herrings here. For example, perhaps the sailboat was motorsailing. If so, it may have been the give-way vessel rather than stand on. But being a sailboat it would not have been going particularly fast in any case, and reports suggest it was only going about 6 knots. A motor yacht approaching from a distance probably would not have definitively known the sailboat was motoring also, so while the boats priorities might technically have shifted the motor yacht could not have been certain of that fact.

Rule 6 specifies boats should maintain safe speeds, which are determined by th circumstances. Here, the water was pretty open, but aiming close to another boat produced a situation akin to much more crowded waters....

... in open water everyone tends to be pretty relaxed. Under those conditions, you can maintain a good speed (the motor yacht was going pretty fast it seems), but you should not do that when you are near other vessels.

It is a fact of life that sailboats can be unpredictable in their movement. Someone can step on a line and throw a sheet loose, an autopilot may malfunction, or a shift in the wind may cause a crisis. If you have room to stay clear, why not give the sailboat enough space for the unexpected?

Amen. You get it.

I also wonder whether autopilot contributed to this situation. Steering by hand, it would be an easy matter upon first seeing a sailboat ahead to change bearing by a point or so in order to give it a wide pass. That slight deflection, begun miles away, would have hardly any impact on progress. But an autopilot, following the straight line to its next waypoint, would bring the two vessels much closer together before human intervention was called for, and at that point there would be less room for error and then every action could become critical.

There seem to be indications that this was the case with the motoryacht, and that there apparently wasn't a competent person at her helm keeping a watch, or capable of steering the motoryacht onto a safe course.

It is quite possible the sailboat did some things wrong, and even possible that fault could ultimately lie with it.

I personally cannot imagine a scenario where a speeding motoryacht could run over a sailboat, in an open-water, uncrowded, high visibility situation, that ISN'T mostly the motoryacht's fault. But I'll try to keep an open mind.

But the bottom line is that a polite power boat giving the sailboat the comfort of a wide berth would have avoided all the other decisions and errors that led to the crash.

Well... YES. Exactly. Except that on CF we don't do polite boating. We do colregs.

[Franziska]

Well, no need fordetailed Colreg discussions if a person would have used their brains and have thought about what it means drivi g a big boat at 30knots.

Politeness and mindfulness would have spared everyone this.

[B_Hunter45]

In Italy Justice is very subjective, the phrase "money can't by me love" might be true, however in Italy it can buy you justice or injustice, depends on which side you are.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I personally cannot imagine a scenario where a speeding motoryacht could run over a sailboat, in an open-water, uncrowded, high visibility situation, that ISN'T mostly the motoryacht's fault. But I'll try to keep an open mind.

I too think it is extremely unlikely that the motor yacht would be allocated anything less than 50% of the responsibility, and almost certainly far more than that. Having both ships' complement enjoying a leisurely dinner whilst Otto steered might get you close, or perhaps the watch-stander on the motor yacht keeling over from a sudden cardiac event.

For myself, the issue with calling out only the faults of the motor yacht is that it implicitly suggests the other vessel was completely blameless, and therefore nothing is to be gained by asking what they might have done differently. It's also the more interesting question, as the likely faults of the motor yacht are plain to see.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by requiem

For myself, the issue with calling out only the faults of the motor yacht is that it implicitly suggests the other vessel was completely blameless, and therefore nothing is to be gained by asking what they might have done differently. It's also the more interesting question, as the likely faults of the motor yacht are plain to see.

Oh sure, agreed. There's always something to learn.

I'm just against representations that

• colregs are infallible at preventing collisions, even against grossly asymmetrical capabilities, and involving negligence or malice
• people following the reasonable expectations of a common interaction between pleasure craft bear substantial fault if a clearly negligent operator with a faster craft runs them over

And what do you change? Should every future interaction with a fast powerboat be treated by slower craft as potentially life-threatening, like Don describes, or should authorities come down like a ton of bricks on the negligent powerboater, in the hopes that other such powerboaters take their responsibilities a bit more seriously?

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

And what do you change? Should every future interaction with a fast powerboat be treated by slower craft as potentially life-threatening, like Don describes, or should authorities come down like a ton of bricks on the negligent powerboater, in the hopes that other such powerboaters take their responsibilities a bit more seriously?

I do not believe that it is fair and just to single out for punishment, among a large group that makes unsafe choices that put others at risk, only those individuals whose actions led to a tragic outcome.


I would like to see more basic law enforcement on the water, targeting those boats that have a mindset that the rules don't apply to them. Ticketing people for violations changes behavior over time. Locally law enforcement simply does not enforce boating regulations outside a handful of their favorites (operating while intoxicated, equipment, registration, and capacity violations, fishing violations, egregious violation of posted no-wake zones, and riding on the bow or gunwale).

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I do not believe that it is fair and just to single out for punishment, among a large group that makes unsafe choices that put others at risk, only those individuals whose actions led to a tragic outcome.


I would like to see more basic law enforcement on the water, targeting those boats that have a mindset that the rules don't apply to them. Ticketing people for violations changes behavior over time. Locally law enforcement simply does not enforce boating regulations outside a handful of their favorites (operating while intoxicated, equipment, registration, and capacity violations, fishing violations, egregious violation of posted no-wake zones, and riding on the bow or gunwale).

We just don't have the constraints of lanes an highways, we don't have patrol boats at the ready to halt a wayward boat and issue a ticket. Indeed the boat I encountered may not have seen a boat with lights and siren coming up behind him anyway. Issuing a ticket would have been closing the barn door after the cow got out. I am not sure extremely harsh punishment will help much either. I don't have a good idea when it comes to prevention aside from staying clear of any powerboat I see, if I can.

If it turns out the sailboat suddenly turned into the path of the powerboat, then it might seem the sailboat is at fault. However, if that is the case I would argue the powerboat was aiming to pass the sailboat way too closely and should have reduced speed and changed course well before a change in the sailboat's course could have cause a conflict. The difference in speed and maneuverability of the two vessels certainly shows the powerboat was far more greatly culpable IMO, and this is before taking the poor watchstanding into consideration.

[AKA-None]

In enclosed waters I sail like I ride my motorcycle
Every car is out to get you because they don’t pay attention
Every power boat is out to get you because they don’t pay attention

Not all but just when you think people are paying attention is when the anal orifice cabin cruiser come flying through with no as in zero visible occupants

[Rumrace]

It is going to fall under Civil Law in Italy. The judge will be an active participant.
Were it Common Law Ontario and I was the crown I would be looking for facts to charge the power boater with Manslaughter and the sailboat with criminal negligence causing death.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

It is going to fall under Civil Law in Italy. The judge will be an active participant.
Were it Common Law Ontario and I was the crown I would be looking for facts to charge the power boater with Manslaughter and the sailboat with criminal negligence causing death.

I used to think like that.

Then I realized that I'm not perfect, just lucky.

Originally Posted by Romans 2:1

Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

In enclosed waters I sail like I ride my motorcycle
Every car is out to get you because they don’t pay attention
Every power boat is out to get you because they don’t pay attention

I do the same but treat everyone on the road that way because it's not just cars
And the same on the water because it's not just powerboats.

And not just enclosed waters
If we hadn't been on the ball we would have had a collision with a yacht about 300nm out
Assuming they were asleep and on autopilot, saw no one onboard and couldn't raise them on radio