Question about 'mayday' situations.

[grantmc]

Originally Posted by StuM

Possible MOB - Pan Pan (upgrade to MayDay when you know).

Disagree, MOB is a mayday, especially if it were me that had fallen in. I would want every vessel in the area keeping a watch out. Once the ship establishes it's a false alarm then cancel. Always err on caution first.

[guyrj33]

from wiki

Mayday, pan-pan, securite
Of the three distress and urgency calls, Sécurité is the least urgent.

Securite: A radio call that usually issues navigational warnings, meteorological warnings, and any other warning needing to be issued that may concern the safety of life at sea, yet may not be particularly life-threatening.

Pan-pan: This is the second most important call. This call is made when there is an emergency aboard a vessel, yet there is not immediate danger to life, or the safety of the vessel itself. This includes, but is not limited to injuries on deck, imminent collision that has not yet occurred, or being unsure of vessel's position.

Mayday: This is the most important call that can be made, due to the fact that it directly concerns a threat to life or the vessel. Some instances when this call would be made are, but not limited to death, collision, and fire at sea. When the Mayday call is made, the vessel is requiring immediate assistance.

[hellosailor]

"Possible MOB - Pan Pan (upgrade to MayDay when you know)."
"Disagree, MOB is a mayday, "

Grant, you're not reading what he wrote. He said a *POSSIBLE* MOB is not a MayDay. That's to differentiate from what he did not say, but definitely inferred, that a CONFIRMED MOB IS A MAYDAY.

And even then, a MOB may not be a MayDay. Every day there are kids falling out of Optimus dinghies while racing, and their club usually has a chase boat and they're expected to get back in and keep on sailing.

There's a difference between "man overboard wearing PFD in broad daylight and calm water" and "Man overboard, eight foot seas, ten miles offshore, condition unknown."

The urgency calls are all pretty clearly defined. If no one is in imminent danger of dying, and no substantial property is in danger of loss, then by definition you don't have an emergency.

If you *suspect* there is a MOB, you have a problem, but not an emergency. You take a second look and a second headcount, and you don't have an emergency until and unless you're pretty darn sure there is a MOB.

Too many folks think "I broke a fingernail and I've got this job interview to go to" is an emergency. That's an inconvenience, not an emergency. Responses will be totally different, unless you've got a manicurist on the boat.

[charliehows]

from a legal (and, to some extent a medical) point of view, it's not up to you to decide if someone is dead or not, so in the case of a death on board, it doesnt get much more dire as a risk-to-life situation than if you think someone may have died. Ergo, a mayday call is quite appropriate. Likewise for a suspected MOB - an old salt once told me that if you are singlehanding, falling overboard is not unlike falling off the wing of an aircraft in flight, in terms of your chances of survival.
The principle of the matter comes down to this; what are you trying to communicate, to whom, and why.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by charliehows

The principle of the matter comes down to this; what are you trying to communicate, to whom, and why.

I agree. And also with the point that a crew member hasn't necessarily died just because other crew members believe they have. CPR and a mayday call if close to emergency services could well prove worthwhile.

It used to be that a mayday call was strictly for imminent danger to the boat or the life of the skipper. Nowadays that's loosened to danger to any life on board. But, regardless of the technicalities of the wording or to the legal position, the choice for the call depends upon the actions you are expecting.

Do you need everyone who hears your message to drop everything and come to your aid right now? Regardless of inconvenience, substantial cost, or danger to their own lives and boats/helicopters? If so, it's a mayday. If not, I'd suggest a pan-pan would be more appropriate, which you can always upgrade if necessary.

[pete33458]

I dunno. I see mayday as an absolute last resort, with no other option available. In the absence of that, I think standard contact protocol is in order.


Some years ago (8 this month in fact) we were hit by lightning in a bad storm off of Cape Hatteras. The pulse fried the electronics, ignited the electrical insulation, which ignited the fiberglass bulkheads, etc., etc. I think you could probably make a case that there was imminent danger, but all I did was notify the CG about the situation, they asked if we wanted to abandon ship, I said we wanted to try to contain the fire, etc., etc. We eventually did contain the fire, but we needed a CG escort in (because we had no nav equipment or lights, or charts of the inland waterways in that region). At the end of the ordeal, you could tell from the subtle hints that the CG appreciated the fact that we didn't call mayday for a situation that we were ultimately able to handle.


Not trying to discourage anyone from calling mayday if they believe it is necessary, but as I said, for me, it's an absolute last resort.



BTW, just because we didn't call mayday doesn't mean I didn't soil my pants (figuratively of course). Pete

[Snore]

If we are going to be nitpicking- one can continue a Pan Pan post mortem, if the person died of some other communicable disease that could infect an approaching ship.

If the crewman had a heart attack, crew could/should attempt CPR at sea. Then it is a possible Pan Pan seeking medical assistance (cruise ship with AED). But at some point continuing the CPR places the remaining crew and vessel at risk. At that point the Master should stop CPR. It would seem logical to log this time as it is the de facto time of death. No need for a general radio call as The Almighty is already aware of things.

Once in radio range an immediate call should be placed to the authorities. I am sure there will be a bunch of questions.

I pray I never get into either situation!!

[Dave_S]

Death on board, I'd just call the coast guard

Possible MOB, Mayday. I don't see the difference between possible and confirmed, you expect the same response.

[Lihuedooley77]

Only one Mayday Call in all the years as a professional USCG lic., captain..

I was skipper on a wedding charter. 55 ft. med flyer motor vessel, named Kismet.

Location: Newport Bay, Ca. ( South of L.A. ). Licensed capt, and minister beginning the ceremony on the bow area. We are decked out in our whites and shoulder boards. Most guests were at the large topside bow area, A few were up on the flying bridge with me.

We were hove to, off harbor island in Newport Bay, out of the normal lanes of weekend sail and motor vessel traffic. Which is an absolute zoo of anything that floats.

About the time that the minister said, do you take so and so to be your lawful wedded.......the grandfather of the bride , our cold, colapses hard on the deck. he deficates in his pants and is unconscious. The woman standing next to me says OH NO, NOT NOW !

I took that comment to mean that the old gentleman was not in good health in the first place. A young man , who was training to be a paramedic begins CPR.

We are about a mile and a half from our docks at the very far closed end of the main channel, Speed limit is 5 mph, and no wake.

I call a MAYDAY to the Newport Bay Harbor Dept. I need to get this fellow to a waiting ambulance, and transported to Hoag Hospital.

"Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, this is the motor vessel Kismet to the Newport Bay Harbor Dept on Chl 16." ( They constantly are patrolling the channels of the harbor )

A woman dispatcher replies and I give her, the name of our vessel, the location off harbor island, near the # such and such buoy. We are 55 ft. white motor vessel with a large wedding party on board. We have a 70 plus yr old man whom may be having a heart attack, passenger is performing CPR trying to revive the victim."

" Request immediate medical assistance and transport to the Harbor Dept. Dock and a waiting ambulance. "

The woman comes back on freq, and says THERE ARE NO HARBOR DEPT VESSELS AVAILABLE.

OK.....my hands are just about to open full ahead both, and the devil with the speed limit and wake restriction. It will take a bit to get there, get the fenders and docklines ready, weave thru the slow moving several hundred sunday boaters, etc.

About that time, I see a harbie boat headed to our vessel with a 'bone in its teeth" .
( large wake ) They pull up along side and the old gentleman was just reviving. We transferred him to the harbor dept patrol boat, they turned on the blue flashing lights and siren and called and would have an ambulance waiting at their dock.

No delay, in getting the victim to Hoag Hospital ER.

The woman standing next to me, said that he had been very, very ill for some time, and had was not in good physical condition, and close to the end of his life.

Well, that put a huge stop to the wedding, but the licensed minister continued on the ceremony finished up and we began the planned nice harbor cruise thru the many different channels. One guest had a cell phone, that was all knew coms, back then. He called Hoag and eventually we got word that Grandpa was stable and resting .

The whole bloody vessel was cheering and the booze was flowing and the party light was lit.

The following weekend, I was just finishing up a charter or a sailing lesson at our maritime academy.... sailing and motor vessel training and charters.....and a warfrat expert comes up to me and tells me that he heard the MAYDAY on the VHF.

And, that really was not a mayday. And according to him, I was breaking the regs.

Yeah, well, I really do not care if that was an official Mayday in this dudes mind, my responsibility was to get immediate professional medical attention and try to save my passengers life. That task was accomplished.

That is the only Mayday situation that I have had in 37 years as a professional skipper and U.S.C.G. Captain.

I have had engine or electrical problems and mechanical failures where I have sailed the boats back into the docks, under sail, up to 55 footers. or picked up a mooring undersail with a cabin and vessel full of gas fumes. No declaring of an emergency since I did not consider the situations an emergency.

I do have a story or two on saving a life, but that is under skippers responsibility. Wont bother you all with any additional in danger situations at this time.

Yeah, you all get a break for the sea stories.

[JMitchell]

Originally Posted by Snore

If we are going to be nitpicking- one can continue a Pan Pan post mortem, if the person died of some other communicable disease that could infect an approaching ship.

If the crewman had a heart attack, crew could/should attempt CPR at sea. Then it is a possible Pan Pan seeking medical assistance (cruise ship with AED). But at some point continuing the CPR places the remaining crew and vessel at risk. At that point the Master should stop CPR. It would seem logical to log this time as it is the de facto time of death. No need for a general radio call as The Almighty is already aware of things.

Once in radio range an immediate call should be placed to the authorities. I am sure there will be a bunch of questions.

I pray I never get into either situation!!

Thats a nice thought, but I wouldnt waste the effort. You could make attempt for a 2-minute cycle of CPR but if no revival, stop. CPR is horrible and it has maybe a 1% chance of cardiac conversion and thats unlikely to be sustainable. In 18 years as a full time EMT, I've seen one person revived by CPR. CPR also breaks all the ribs away from the sternum, can breaks ribs and and can lead to punctured lungs. Its a violent assault on the body as a last ditch effort to keep them from brain death before true medical help.

The true use of CPR is to continue manual circulation of oxygenated blood until and AED and ALS with drugs can be applied, which only serve to get the victim to a hospital. Only about 10% that make it to the hospital actually survive. I have done CPR, with AED and pushing drugs only to arrive at the emergency room where a doctor asks "how long since they went down?" and then call time of death. So out at sea, hours or days away from a port... there is basically no point in CPR.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

.

However, say you come across a dead body in the water, <snip>. I have hearsay of someone who used a fishing gaff for the purpose, you might want to figure out something else out of respect for the family of the deceased.

Be careful.
Bodies that have been in the water for a while especially in tropical waters can get a bit "delicate".

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Pan pan is for a situation of urgency -- an urgent problem affecting the safety of the vessel or crew -- which could escalate into distress.


What is urgent about having a corpse on board? What's the effect on safety of the vessel? His condition is certainly not going to worsen. I think it's routine traffic.

What is the urgency? Well, if you're off Africa, maybe he died of ebola, and shortly you'll all be dead....

But I think I spoke hastily. There is no emergency, nor urgency with the vessel to warn others of, to even use a Pan Pan. I do think, though, if it's a fresh corpse, depending on where you are, what you do might vary. The incident I mentioned above, it was a charter fishing boat on SF Bay, (hence, the gaff was handy) and I don't remember anymore if the decedent was a jumper off the Golden Gate bridge or not.

I do think if there are any "authorities" around, they should be notified if you find a dead person, or if someone dies on your boat. The actions to be taken on a long journey far from land, especially in warm areas, have been discussed already, in the archives here on CF.

Ann

[TheGoldenFleece]

Originally Posted by JMitchell

Thats a nice thought, but I wouldnt waste the effort. You could make attempt for a 2-minute cycle of CPR but if no revival, stop. CPR is horrible and it has maybe a 1% chance of cardiac conversion and thats unlikely to be sustainable.

I’m not refuting what you’re saying here, I just found it interesting that you bring this up right after a post about a man who collapsed, was given CPR, and survived...

[alctel]

Originally Posted by Lihuedooley77

*wedding story*

To me that's a classic Mayday - imminent and grievous danger to life.

Here is one I was never sure of - if you are on a vessel and see another vessel go down or catch fire - is it a Mayday or a Mayday relay?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by alctel

To me that's a classic Mayday - imminent and grievous danger to life.

Here is one I was never sure of - if you are on a vessel and see another vessel go down or catch fire - is it a Mayday or a Mayday relay?

IMO, that's a MAYDAY.

A Mayday relay is when you have received a mayday and are passing it on to a SAR outfit etc on behalf of the original sender.