MOB Man Overboard! Volvo Team Sun Hung Kai Scallywag

[leboyd]

So many experts on this site who could and would have done it sooo much better. As Flagman101 says, put a team together and show those incompetent sailors how to do it.

@Don CL, I believe the article explains that they did use the motor and motored-sailed back and during the search.

I know, what really happened is the team wasn’t sure if they wanted to go back to save their teammate. For 20 minutes they continued racing downwind at 20kn and discussed returning to search or to just keep on racing. After a vote, they quickly turned around, sailed back and searched around for a few minutes. After the few minutes of searching they decided they were just too cold and tired to keep searching so they decided to quit and go back inside the cozy, warm interior of the boat and rest.

[Davidhoy]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

... (I exclude Trump's underground coal mining friends that think that mining without death is for wimps) ...

Can't we leave politics out of at least some things? Sheesh...

[Mr B]

In those temps down there, Even with his dry suit on,
How long would it be before Hypothermia set in and killed the man,
Finding a person in those seas would be near impossible, even with a PLB working efficiently,
20 foot waves and 40 knots of wind, looking across an extremely turbulent ocean from 6 feet above the waterline,
Even a helicopter would have had trouble finding him,
He didnt have a hope in hell of being found, Thats the sad reality,

[spearfish3]

Originally Posted by Mr B

In those temps down there, Even with his dry suit on,
How long would it be before Hypothermia set in and killed the man,
Finding a person in those seas would be near impossible, even with a PLB working efficiently,
20 foot waves and 40 knots of wind, looking across an extremely turbulent ocean from 6 feet above the waterline,
Even a helicopter would have had trouble finding him,
He didnt have a hope in hell of being found, Thats the sad reality,

I would also add that it appears that John Fisher was knocked out and unconscious when he went over. That can have a material impact to survivability, especially in 4-5 meter seas.

As for getting back quickly, I can see how it is challenging it is in those seas. I have never been in seas that large, but I have been in 10 ft seas going downwind. Going into the wind is tougher than it sounds. I would think making up distance upwind would take 2-4x as long as the downwind turning sequence. Trying to find someone in seas like that is a low probably hunt and getting here has to be more difficult than it sounds.

It also sounds to me like the jibe happened at the worst time and in a very violent way. I feel terrible for the family and the crew on the boat. I cannot imagine losing someone at sea.

[SaylorMade]

It is such a disgrace to read some of the comments here.
Pure victim blaming.
To all of you who could have handled the situation much much better: What do you think the reason is? Did the Scally crew decide to wait 40 minutes before they turned, just to teach him a lesson or what is going through your minds?
I am really curious, because it makes no sense whatsoever.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

It is such a disgrace to read some of the comments here.
Pure victim blaming.
To all of you who could have handled the situation much much better: What do you think the reason is? Did the Scally crew decide to wait 40 minutes before they turned, just to teach him a lesson or what is going through your minds?
I am really curious, because it makes no sense whatsoever.

hmmm . . . . humans make mistakes, especially under stress/shock - all humans, even particularly competent ones. It is not uncommon to see a (with hind-sight) less than optimal reaction in situations like this. The point of the discussion is to learn from that.

In this case - there are two plain facts for me.

#1 the fact they had an accidental gybe says for 100% sure they could have maneuvered pretty much immediately (eg it says they were not locked down with preventers and such). It is different with big sails/chutes, with preventers and poles - that simply takes time (which is probably what ian was talking about; but in this case they already had reduced plain sails, which we know were not 'locked down'.

#2 they only searched for 'a couple hours', when the standard SAR practice is to search for the best case survival time plus a bit. You want to always search for the best case time plus some because you dont want your guy to be that lucky one who survives for longer than average and sill dies because you. The best case times are somewhat debatable, but USCG reference times here, if he was in fact wearing a dry suit with hood and gloves, are somewhere in the 6 to 19 hour range (depending on the specific gear).

So, factually, taking a bunch of time to turn the boat around and then only searching for a little time really makes little sense.

As to why that happened . . . I would suggest: shock, stress, weak leadership in a crisis, falling back on training which was not appropriate for this specific situation.

And yes, I have actually sailed down there in the southern ocean. I know what those conditions are like. And yes, I have been on these sorts of boats, and know the sailors (not from this race but from prior ones). So, I am considering some amount of direct knowledge.

That all said, in any of the accidents, we were not there and it is always hard to determine what and why things went wrong. I was on a couple official accident investigation panels and we had all the information possibly available and it was still pretty hard to reach very definitive conclusions. But the point is to learn as much as you possibly can so hopefully be better when it is your time.

[Bean Counter]

I don't understand why modern race crews do not all carry an AIS transponder (with a strobe light) around their neck or on the pfd. We wear ours continually, even sleep with it on so if you get up in an emergency the thing is still on you. They are not heavy, they send out Lat and Long to anything with a receiver within a couple of miles and flash SOS or strobe. The search crew are unlikely to give up if there is an MOB signal showing up on their plotter. These things have all been tested in calm conditions, I would like to know if any have actually been used to rescue someone in bad conditions.

Found one http://www.mcmurdogroup.com/wp-conte...Study-2014.pdf

[Bean Counter]

And another one Personal Locator Beacons Save Lives | Blue Water Sailing
This time a EPIRB model, but if the main boat has a satphone then they can get the coordinates from the rescue authorities.

[Don C L]

For those interested:

Tested: AIS MOB devices – Yachting World

https://www.sailfeed.com/2017/08/tes...re-especially/

So to estarzinger: with that kind of boat, that engine and those conditions, that change in course, how feasible is it to pull off a rescue?
My reason for asking about the engine is that I wonder, or actually I doubt, even if they had rounded up and doused the sails right away and simultaneously fired up the engine, and had an AIS signal to shoot for, that they could have made it back to him in 40 knots of wind. If they had reefed the main down and motor-sailed tacking back up, perhaps, which is probably what they did. But you'd really need a beacon and some serious horsepower to have a decent chance I would think.

[boatman61]

Funny how discussing things gets some folks backs up enough to lead to dissing others posts.. I stuck my nose in when one of the most experienced in CF got sneered at for passing comment.
We are talking about sea conditions experienced by few on the forum..
When a gale has been blowing more than 48 hours the sea develops sets of waves in formations even in the N Atlantic which make them rideable to windward.. in the S Ocean where wind and current go the same way all the time even more so.. one just has to view footage from the stern of one of those boats to see this.
Its not like the sea conditions on the continental shelf where theres a variety of currents and confused 3.. 4.. 5metre waves coming at you.. its deep water sailing.. and.. its a big boat fully crewed.. 35kts is not that big a blow.
I remember coming round St Vincent years ago on my 30ftr and coming out of the lee got hit by F7.. I was on the cabin top battling with a flogging main I was slab reefing, bouncing about in wind over tide when Winston blew past me.. all the young dudes in their shorts and T Shirts giving the old guy big Colgate White grins.. she was rock steady..
I am not dissing the crew.. I am however questioning the reasoning behind some of the posts..
For example gybe times under shortened sail.. the fact the mast stayed up after the accident is the first indication they were not over pressed.. one could even say they were taking it easy.. could that be the reason for the accident.
Folk forget.. boats this size are solo'd non stop around the world.. even by women so a full and competent crew should be able to do a gybe without 40mins to 1 hour to prepare.. without losing mast or crew.
I was not on the boat.. I cannot say why things took so long.. nor why they quit so soon.. that would be a comms decision to my mind.. how does one know if a man flying through the air is concious or not in the few seconds between impact and him hitting the water.. assuming someone actually had eyes on him at that very second.
If one does not ask one will not know.. some try to sort the wheat from the chaff.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

I don't understand why modern race crews do not all carry an AIS transponder

my understanding is that the volvo crews in fact did have MOB AiS units. They had duplicate gear issued both for their spinlock vests and in issued survival belt packs. In this case (apparently) either he was not wearing it, or it was not activated.

Originally Posted by Don C L

So to estarzinger: with that kind of boat, that engine and those conditions, that change in course, how feasible is it to pull off a rescue?

Motor sailing with deeply reefed main . . . honestly very doable on these boats.

Realize these boats sail extremely well. Probably you could do it on mainsail alone, but it would take longer, you would not be able to point as high, and could not effect as good a search pattern. But these boats certainly can (and in fact have) go upwind into those sorts of conditions. If you are going to do it for double digit hours, what you need to be careful of is breaking internal bulkheads lose (has happened in the past).

I could dig up examples, but the one that most stands out in my mind is the french solo racer (yes a different designed boat, but in the same general design space) who sailed upwind a couple hundred miles into rather worse weather (was gusting to 60 if I remember) to save a friend on another boat; when a brit racer (who I will not name) who was closer refused to go back. I'v been upwind in 35 gusting 50 for 48 hours down there (just sailing no motor), trying to beat a second much worse weather pattern, and I was seasick because of the motion, but we did it and did get out of the way of the second pattern.

As to a 'successful' rescue, the odds were low. If he was in fact unconscious when he went in the water he would not have lasted long; and finding him in those conditions, even if you made the perfect instant maneuver, really really tough (much much better if his AiS had been activated, but still tough). The odds were bad the instant he went in the water . . . . however in these situations you have to assume the best case, because people have been lucky and have been rescued.

I do happen to agree with Brian Hancock that these boats need to be designed with better protection for the crew (like the solo boats have evolved into). That would have helped when getting back upwind, but i'm not sure if it would have helped prevent the incident - which was really unfortunate timing - helmsman screws up and accidentally jibes boat just as crew unclips to move position and sheet just catches him - that is really a terribly unfortunate sequence.

One complexity in this situation is that there is mention of 'the weather getting much worse in the forecast'. That does add a difficult factor into the search time equation. You dont want to create serious risk for the surviving crew if the probability of the MOB being alive is near zero. These boats 'should be' (imho) designed to be able to survive pretty much anything the southern ocean can throw at you - but there is always a limit and risk calculation.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

.......
I could dig up examples, but the one that most stands out in my mind is the french solo racer (yes a different designed boat, but in the same general design space) who sailed upwind a couple hundred miles into rather worse weather (was gusting to 60 if I remember) to save a friend on another boat; when a brit racer (who I will not name) who was closer refused to go back. I'v been upwind in 35 gusting 50 for 48 hours down there (just sailing no motor), trying to beat a second much worse weather pattern, and I was seasick because of the motion, but we did it and did get out of the way of the second pattern.
.........

You aren't thinking of Pete Goss and Raphael Dinelli by any chance?

'After receiving the distress call, Pete sent what may have been his last fax to his wife to explain what he was about to do and immediately turned round to rescue the Frenchman. He battled for two days to reach the near-dead Dinelli, who was extremely lucky to survive 48 hours in a freezing life raft.'

Pete Goss. Sailor, adventurer, international speaker. What next? Find out here



To me 7 hours seems a remarkably sort time spent searching .... given that one assumes they had an MOB position.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

These boats 'should be' (imho) designed to be able to survive pretty much anything the southern ocean can throw at you - but there is always a limit and risk calculation.

First, thank you for your insightful comments. They add a substantially to the conversation

Your comment about the boat survivability is a subject of some conversation among racers, and not just boat racing. Throughout the history of modern racing, designers have stretched the boundaries of engineering, with the occasional but unsurprising result.
e.g. Rescued sailor's boat 'broke in half' - Yachting World

I suspect that the only way this will change is if the governing bodies require certain design elements to be included. Even then, there will always be a pushing of the envelope.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

You aren't thinking of Pete Goss and Raphael Dinelli by any chance?

Goss' rescue effort was superlative - we gave him a blue water medal for it.

Golding also made a good rescue effort - going 80mi upwind (if I remember correctly) to get alex.

Actually interesting how many such great efforts there have been in the solo fleet - I was thinking of another 'all french' effort.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I should note here, if anyone has any doubt . . . I have sure made my fair share of mistakes and dumb actions. There were 'reasons' at the time each time I did what I did, but in hindsight I realized how stupid they were and tried to learn from them. Fatigue, being just a little lazy, and trying to cut a corner were a pretty common themes in my failures and I did get much better at managing those traits over time. Luck is also useful At the end of my sailing, being solo up in the ice in greenland was in retrospect quite dumb, but I managed the risks and had some luck and got thru that without incident.

[Jim Cate]

While reminiscing about rescues that worked, don't forget Alan Nebauer in Newcastle Australia beating back some 60 miles to rescue Josh Hall (boat name forgotten) off of South Africa in the '94-'95 BOC race. IIRC, he arrived when Josh's boat was awash and he was standing ankle deep on the deck. Stiff conditions, but not so severe as this incident.

Jim