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Old 27-01-2020, 13:08   #76
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

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Whenever I want a reminder of just how sanctimonious and mean spirited people can be I need only look at these speculative posts in Cruisers Forum.
Amen! Arm chair sailing is easy. It may be a SNUFU or not. Will we ever know?
I guess the good side is no lives were lost.
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Old 27-01-2020, 13:11   #77
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

Ohhh this a a harsh group.
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Old 27-01-2020, 13:46   #78
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

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Ohhh this a a harsh group.
Perhaps, but what is really harsh is reality when an unprepared boat & crew are out on the ocean and things go sideways. And without a friendly freighter nearby the outcome could have been a lot worse.

What I find distressing is the number of people that are willing to head out across an ocean with so little preparation or understanding of what they are doing. Part of that is a mental dependence on modern equipment. No, you don't need a functioning electrical system to survive. You don't need a refrigerator. You don't need a chartplotter. Or an autopilot. Or a watermaker. Or a diesel engine. Or even navigation lights. All you need is a sound, functioning sailboat, enough dry or canned food, enough water, and some form of navigation (which could be traditional celestial/dead reckoning or a battery-powered GPS). If you can't do that with your boat and crew you are not ready to cross an ocean IMHO.

Being critical of those who are apparently not prepared to carry on regardless might be insensitive to the sufferers but the point of the exercise is to encourage others to think more about what they are doing and thus avoid these experiences.

Greg
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Old 27-01-2020, 14:18   #79
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

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Perhaps, but what is really harsh is reality when an unprepared boat & crew are out on the ocean and things go sideways. And without a friendly freighter nearby the outcome could have been a lot worse.

What I find distressing is the number of people that are willing to head out across an ocean with so little preparation or understanding of what they are doing. Part of that is a mental dependence on modern equipment. No, you don't need a functioning electrical system to survive. You don't need a refrigerator. You don't need a chartplotter. Or an autopilot. Or a watermaker. Or a diesel engine. Or even navigation lights. All you need is a sound, functioning sailboat, enough dry or canned food, enough water, and some form of navigation (which could be traditional celestial/dead reckoning or a battery-powered GPS). If you can't do that with your boat and crew you are not ready to cross an ocean IMHO.

Being critical of those who are apparently not prepared to carry on regardless might be insensitive to the sufferers but the point of the exercise is to encourage others to think more about what they are doing and thus avoid these experiences.

Greg
My point which continues to be amplified, with more conjecture in posts, is that we know nothing accurately about this and yet we are willing to throw everybody under the bus based on a few third or more hand short sentences, that are not corroborated. It is the way of the internet and social media, and we are so used to it, we just jump on the bandwagon. Sickening.
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Old 27-01-2020, 14:21   #80
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

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Should be able to set that boat up to self steer pretty easy.
Would like to see that. On my crossing at times the 3-4m waves would pick the boat up and spin it well off course which if no corrective action was taken it would then try to turn up into the the wind.
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Old 27-01-2020, 14:30   #81
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

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My point which continues to be amplified, with more conjecture in posts, is that we know nothing accurately about this and yet we are willing to throw everybody under the bus based on a few third or more hand short sentences, that are not corroborated. It is the way of the internet and social media, and we are so used to it, we just jump on the bandwagon. Sickening.
You can easily read between the lines as to who is jumping on the band wagon.
You're right, I would not want some people on a jury.
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Old 27-01-2020, 15:58   #82
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

Something's definitely not right here - it's a "SAILING" boat...... so try sailing it... der
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Old 27-01-2020, 16:01   #83
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

i agree with Atoll. another inexperienced boat owner gets a taste of the real ocean and calls it quits.
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Old 27-01-2020, 16:16   #84
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

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My point which continues to be amplified, with more conjecture in posts, is that we know nothing accurately about this and yet we are willing to throw everybody under the bus based on a few third or more hand short sentences, that are not corroborated. It is the way of the internet and social media, and we are so used to it, we just jump on the bandwagon. Sickening.
I do not know, nor claim to know, the exact situation here - I am simply responding to the entire thread and the comments made there and the issues raised. My point is that there is very little that should ever require a call for help IF the boat and crew were prepared for the passage. Medical problems are one category, although even there a well-equipped medical chest reduces the likelihood. Continuous seasickness is dangerous, which is why no one should start out across an ocean without at least some coastal experience in rough conditions so that they will know if that might become a problem.

In this case I see a sound vessel with no hint that she was in danger of sinking due to water intrusion, just one indication of a rudder problem. Ocean racers are required to have a plan, and equipment if appropriate, for steering the vessel if rudder control is lost, and we should too - whether or not that is the case here. I am not accusing them, but I sure am pointing out one of the many things that a well-prepared skipper should have thought of, and solved, before departing. Have you? Can you steer your boat to weather or wind abeam with just the sails? Or control her off the wind with emergency rudder, or a drogue?

In the world of aviation when something bad happens it is analyzed and the causes publicly shared for all to learn. Often it leads to some embarrassment for the pilot but it is understood that it is necessary so future pilots may avoid the same failure. As long as the pilot is candid about it there is rarely much judgement - everyone knows that we all can make mistakes. It is the pilot that hides his mistakes that is in for a hard time. Unfortunately in the cruising world skippers are too likely to obscure their mistakes, denying us the opportunity to learn. Discussions such as in this thread, whether specific to this incident (which we may never know what happened) or more generally, are our opportunity to discuss and learn so that we are prepared. As in aviation concern for the feelings of those involved, especially when there was no loss of life or injury, must be secondary. And even if conjecture about the cause does not apply, it should get us thinking about that possibility as well. Not discussing it is doing no one any favors.

Greg
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Old 27-01-2020, 16:45   #85
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pirate Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

I am curious about one thing... they hired a pro skipper (reportedly) for the trip
I am a little surprised that he also left the vessel if it was still a viable sailing vessel, instead of carrying on after the owners and dog had disembarked, assuming they were the ones who cried Enough.
An experienced skipper should have been able to solo it to a Caribbean island and anchor up.
But as I said 'assuming only the engine was the problem'
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Old 27-01-2020, 17:13   #86
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

[QUOTE=flee27;3063276]
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""They should have figured all that out on the shakedown cruise. And thought to have kerosene running lights. They were totally unprepared. When you find you are totally unprepared, you just got to man up and gitter done. ""


Do you mean "running lights" as in navigation lights? If so how many people have back up kerosene running lights on their boats? Thats a new one for me...

Not many, maybe, but I do. I will admit I don't have a proper 20 point masthead light for motoring, or proper 12 point stern light... I have a couple of all-around whites though so better than nothing. Got side lights, though. And I can shield the stern light.
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Old 27-01-2020, 19:51   #87
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

I just wish they would have given me the boat when they sailed outbound. I would have been happy to put them on a freighter and keep the boat. It looks like a lovely boat. I could single-hand that boat to just about any place near an ocean and a few places a thousand miles up a river. 12-foot seas are no challenge for that boat. A "broken" engine sounds fake to me. If you have such a nice boat, you should be able to fix your engine unless it throws a rod or explodes. Abandoning a vessel at sea produces a navigation hazard and is just an immoral thing to do. With five people aboard and a professional skipper, it is hard to imagine what might prompt a rational person to abandon his boat. But nuts buy boats. If anyone out there wants to donate a nice offshore cruiser to me, please let me know. I will be there in a jiffy!
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Old 27-01-2020, 21:25   #88
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

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And thought to have kerosene running lights. T

This is the silliest thing I've read here in awhile lol.
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Old 27-01-2020, 21:42   #89
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

DISCLAIMER: NEWB here. Just question and a comment. So if someone finds this boat or the skipper was to say "obrigado pelo barco" ("Thanks for the boat" in Portuguese) and said party goes to register said boat in their name, would it be legal? Could the owners, in a more calm and clear state of mind, stake a claim to their boat?

Comment, I've read every post in this thread with tremendous interest due to the learning value. I'm sooo grateful that folks have taken the time to share their minds, humor, critical analysis, conjecture, zingers and speculations. With all due respects, I see no vitriol, viciousness or waves big enough to cause even a mild "sickening" feeling. If we have a choice, laughter is better than crying at our flawed conditions. The speculations are at imaginary beings just as fictional as the speculations. There's no ad-hominem attacks; only imaginary words about imaginary behaviors. As Greg (CarinaPDX) so cogently stated: "Not discussing it is doing no one any favors." And discussing it, zinger notwithstanding, does some major favors. Maybe there's no better teacher than experience, but I challenge that notion, via the-second-mouse-gets-the-cheese paradigm, better to learn from other's experience, no?

BTW, Brewgyver and Mystic 38: I think towing the boat with the dingy from mid-Atlantic was taken a few miles out of context. Me thinks Joelhemington was referring to Michael Cobbe's post about sailing the motor-disabled boat close to a marina and via CH16; getting a marina boat (ergo dingy) to tow him in.
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Old 27-01-2020, 22:52   #90
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Re: Merchant Bulker Rescues Four from Sailboat in Mid-Atlantic

We're all speculating :-)

But to me, engine failure followed by non working watermaker and too little rain to sustain the water needs for a full crew, followed by panic due to diminishing water supply sounds credible.
Resupplying water might have helped, but was perhaps not feasible.

Too many folks rely on two little tankage & watermaker.

No skip gives up a boat easily.
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