Loss of KELAERIN Rescue of Crew June 2018

[bouncycastle]

Originally Posted by Prairie Chicken

Great news to read Kelaerin has been recovered! I'm delighted for Jim & Joy! Hopefully some of their collection of memorabilia on board will be safe. I suspect they have another 'project' now. Hopefully they keep us appraised.

Excellent news . Do you have any links or any info where the boat drifted to and what state it was in and was it taken in tow as salvage or just towed to a harbour and given back to them .

There was Italian boat looked from pictures to be 30 footer racing type a few months back which drifted onto beach in Ireland after spring storm Atlantic abandon ship problem .
All accounts and pictures would suggest it was very salvageable mostly broken rigging and what looked like deep scratches to hull The Italian owner went to Ireland to claim boat back and said he would try to repair it .
I will look for links on that

I think before end of September if the deal goes through I will own a ~27 foot ~50 year old do it upper 3/4 deep keel type boat .
Then it lots of work to make it blue water capable

Simple maths show a one inch diameter hole two feet below the water line will let in 500 gallons a minute .
.Even with the best pumps most small cruiser boats could not possibly pump that amount of water away

First rule is stop or reduce the size of hole and then keep pumping if the pumps can still work .
Often engines wont work due to immersion water so the bucket is the best friend slow but works .

In the older boats of the historical era storm boards to keep main hatches from bursting open if giant wave fell on them were popular .
That will be my first modification ensure the main hatch cant be shoved in

Also very popular in the olden days was storm boards put over windows and their windows were often small round things . So again storm boards over the windows will be made and fitted


My other new idea strategy plan is device ways to keep boat aflot and buy time

One idea I might try is to carry a 18 foot hobie cat two hulls which I just happen to own and make them when dissembled be tied very securely to the opposite side rails of the main boat when at sea .

Also with reducing the width of the beam of the Hobbie cat to ~ 4 feet when assembled as a cat it can make good rowing outboard tender in anchoring in harbors and also have good extra buoyancy if the main hull sinks when dissembled and when securely strapped to each opposite side of the main boat .

I might have to put expanded foam inside these hobbie cat hulls to give them extra strength to be able to take the loads of keeping the 3,5 ton mother ship afloat

Then I will look to try make as many of the larger storage areas as airtight as possible .

I dont expect to be able to keep them 100% airtight so I will assume they wont stop water for more than a few hours .

The other solution to solve the problem is to buy a bucket load of old rubber tubes for cars and fast system of inflating them such as air tanks for divers or similar .
Electric pumps might be knocked out from too much water immersion

Then open each airtight container using just enough time to stuff in as many inflatable car rubber tubes into the airtight storage regions and close the airtight hatch again .

Also new rule carry no paper no egg cartons no books or paper that are not in wrapped in water tight plastic bags .

My USA navy friend explained to me they must wrap t shirts and cloths in certain ways so it takes longer to open up in water immersion events and block up pumping equipment in the USA navy ships.
Attention to every minor detail is their motto and it has saved many of their ships when it went pear shaped

Might be good to look all solutions but I think stuff like cloths bed covers and sleeping bags towels etc must all be in plastic bags when not in use to stop anything blocking the pumps

I need approx 4 cubic meters of airtight solutions to keep the 3,5 ton 27 foot boat afloat even if the main boat is holed and takes in water faster than I can pump it out .

One guy with a sinking boat inflated his like raft in the main cabin and saved his boat long enough to be rescued .

.I will look to buy a old inflatable boat that can be inflated quickly and wrap it in material so as protect it from abrasion and getting airleaks .

My new logic is keep the boat afloat at all costs hopefully leaving only the risk of fire or leee shore causing me to have to step up into a life raft .

As I mostly do solo or two man cruising it easier for me to dicate my solutions but heavy crewed boats can come up with other solutions that may suit them better

The basic rule is if a large wave rolls the boat and holes it top side from broken mast or similar stoves in doors windows hatches and fills the boat with several tons of water if there is plan that kicks in to keep boat afloat then it becomes with luck just a long wet slog to keep the boat afloat until rescue or other solutions appear or are used .

If crew have got head wounds of any serious nature the best option is rescue every time as head wounds can get very serious very fast .
Then if rescue is the solution and all the inflating solutions or stop sinking solutions have been done the chances to recover a abandoned boat are increased.

Also from now on as the old age kicks in for me and I am not in hurry when the wind and waves get too big and worse crossing and confused I will just opt to assume the worst and go for sea anchors or hove to or whatever are the best solutions for that time .

I meet one delivery sailor in the old days 1980s era before GPS
He was nearing Australia on a forty footer single handed when a three day Hurricane hit him .
The third day he was rolled demasted and had large deck leaks and was basically wrecked and sinking
Apart from he had some way to use the SSB in morse if i recall to inform the Australia rescue of his plight mayday imminent sinking he was crippled and going down and not looking forwards to steeping up into a life raft in big seas .

Aus rescue asked him after three days his estimated position and from his dead reconing he gave them his best estimated position .
It was To cloudy with strm conditions to get any useful sextant reading also for more than three days so it was all dead reconning stuff .
They said OK we will try that position but after three days in the Hurricane your probably way out by a very large factor.
The rescue aircraft arrived over head a few hours later and he was spot on his estimated position to within ~100 meters.
That Rescue plane then guided the rescue ship to his position more quickly as he was way past helicopter ranges for pick up services

Its always a good idea to keep regular updates in logs or similar written down and not electronic so as to aid rescue services in case all electrics and electronics are dead from large water immersion events

You only need the wrong wave to be in your zone to ruin your hair day .

This near sinking near very bad ending has unlighted a lot me and many others to searching for the best solutions for the unexpected

For now they all point to never leave a large boat unless you step up into the life raft and do your best to keep the main boat afloat even if is very full of water is the best policy .
Its far easier for sea rescue to find a larger boat than a tiny speck like a life raft in large oceans

Now hopefully I am off to test the life span of a fivty year old fiber glass boat of the early 1970 era

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by alusealion

Hei Guys, you living in the wrong country. In my country local Coast Guard towning your boat to the shore even if the only problem is lack of petroleum. Or if youa are not cababile navigation from harbour (foreiner harbor) to your home harbour (50 nm navigation way). And all these by free of charge because we pay taxies enough! Ps. edjucation and healt care is free of charge for all citizens as well becaus we pay taxies....

I live in Panama now...no coasties here...you best be self sufficient.

I used to live in Belize...there is technically a coast guard there, but pretty useless.

[Eight Sails]

Originally Posted by 14murs14

On the flip side, non-emergency towing is something that can be provided by private industry and is required (under OMB circular A-76 if you're a policy geek) to be privatized. As a result, much as the U.S. Coast Guard would love to tow people in, you can be sure Sea Tow and the rest are all over them any time they do. The exception to this is if there is an emergency on the boat although usually those are medical emergencies that result in medevacs rather than a tow.

I'm curious about the USCG position on towing abandoned vessels like Kelaerin, which in this case CG did tow (and returned to the owners). Would that be because an abandoned, unlighted vessel is a danger to safe navigation? Because the alternative of sinking a sound vessel close to shore is worse (maybe even be illegal) and CG wouldn't incur the unauthorized expense of calling for a private tow without the owners' consent? Because CG wouldn't waste public resources going out of its way to track and search but would have some duty or discretion to take the opportunity if it happened to find?

[a64pilot]

My guess is maybe they just wanted to be good guys, they find the boat, it’s close enough to tow in, they either contact Seatow who declines the job or there is no Seatow so they tow.

OK maybe USCG won’t charge you, but others if they are involved may
http://content.time.com/time/nation/...892621,00.html

I have said this several times too, USCG can’t tow you , if there are Civilian agencies that do, government would be taking business away from them if they did.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by 14murs14

You're mistaken, at least in the U.S.

The theory is that I'd have much rather flown out and hoisted someone when they started to realize they were in trouble instead of them waiting until the last possible moment when it potentially puts my crew and I in a much more dangerous position, plus makes it less likely that we'll succeed. Not to mention the many pitfalls of charging for a public emergency service; there's a reason police and fire services are generally socialized across everyone rather than charged to the unfortunates or in some cases foolish who end up in need of their services.

I would never want to propose anything that would put the CG in greater danger - their work is already dangerous enough. I am deeply grateful for their SAR activities, though I've never (yet) needed their assistance.

In cases where a rescue results from wantonly un-seaman like operation, maybe requiring the skipper to take a seamanship course would be appropriate. As a flight instructor, I know that you can't teach judgment, but you can teach consequences and skills. Ignorance is only temporary, while stupidity is permanent. Most of the incidents of which I am aware were caused by simple ignorance. When a pilot does something that's clearly un-airman like, the FAA often makes them take additional training. Why not the same policy for skippers?

As I've listened to the CG in the S.F. Bay respond to multiple simultaneous rescues, it seemed clear to me that stretching those resources so thin put everyone else who might need help in additional danger. The Coast Guard is certainly not over-resourced.

[JPA Cate]

When the paramedic arrived, he found the skipper with a head injury. The fact that it is a head injury means that he might soon become dysfunctional from lack of consciousness. I am pretty sure that that is why they chose to be taken off the boat, the need for access to medical care should he lose consciousness. Plus, we know little of the woman's level of competency. To have left her alone on the boat in the shape it was in might have endangered her as well, and thus been unacceptable to both the rescuer and her husband, no matter how game she felt to continue at the time.

Ann

[hellosailor]

Ann-
Lots goes unsaid, intentionally unsaid, in the emergency response and rescue business. Sometimes that is because you don't want to aggravate or incite someone, or scare a victim. Sometimes it is because you want to cross a line, i.e. you aren't allowed to provide help "unless" there's a line crossed, and you don't want to quibble about it, you just want to provide the help.
If the responder suggests leaving the boat, you have to consider that they are probably well experienced and their major concern is saving lives. Boats come second. So what they "suggest" should be given good consideration--even if it is not someone else might suggest.
For instance, if you knew someone had taken a hard knock on the head, but the had no signs of concussion? You might not want to scare them by saying "there's stuff leaking from your ears" but if either blood or cerebral fluid was leaking, that's considered a 100% reason to treat and evaluate further for probable concussion. Now, do you want the victim and wife to be panicked by the word "Consussion" ? Hell no, you just want them to get processed by the medical system, and that means get 'em off the boat. ASAP. Without "terrorizing" them with the deeper possibilities.
Just saying. There are times when the full story will not come out, for perfectly mundane but perfectly good reasons.

[Tillsbury]

In nz, the coastguard (and ambulances for that matter) are charities and they do charge. However, you can join them for a fee and then there is no charge if you need them. Like the RNLI in the UK, most responsible yachtsmen join up.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

My guess is maybe they just wanted to be good guys, they find the boat, it’s close enough to tow in, they either contact Seatow who declines the job or there is no Seatow so they tow.

OK maybe USCG won’t charge you, but others if they are involved may
Get into Trouble Outdoors -- Who Pays for the Rescue? - TIME

I have said this several times too, USCG can’t tow you , if there are Civilian agencies that do, government would be taking business away from them if they did.

The USCG has towed many boats in. Often from offshore to then meet up with a commercial tower close in. We were in a storm off Cape Hatteras that resulted in multiple mayday calls. At least one had a long tow in by the CG from way offshore.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Ann-
Lots goes unsaid, intentionally unsaid, in the emergency response and rescue business. Sometimes that is because you don't want to aggravate or incite someone, or scare a victim. Sometimes it is because you want to cross a line, i.e. you aren't allowed to provide help "unless" there's a line crossed, and you don't want to quibble about it, you just want to provide the help.
If the responder suggests leaving the boat, you have to consider that they are probably well experienced and their major concern is saving lives. Boats come second. So what they "suggest" should be given good consideration--even if it is not someone else might suggest.
For instance, if you knew someone had taken a hard knock on the head, but the had no signs of concussion? You might not want to scare them by saying "there's stuff leaking from your ears" but if either blood or cerebral fluid was leaking, that's considered a 100% reason to treat and evaluate further for probable concussion. Now, do you want the victim and wife to be panicked by the word "Consussion" ? Hell no, you just want them to get processed by the medical system, and that means get 'em off the boat. ASAP. Without "terrorizing" them with the deeper possibilities.
Just saying. There are times when the full story will not come out, for perfectly mundane but perfectly good reasons.

Thank you for that, hello sailor. You've hit the nail on the head, so to speak. It is that none of us were there, and the considerations of the professional health care people are different from those of the sailors.

Ann

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Ann-
Lots goes unsaid, intentionally unsaid, in the emergency response and rescue business. Sometimes that is because you don't want to aggravate or incite someone, or scare a victim. Sometimes it is because you want to cross a line, i.e. you aren't allowed to provide help "unless" there's a line crossed, and you don't want to quibble about it, you just want to provide the help.
If the responder suggests leaving the boat, you have to consider that they are probably well experienced and their major concern is saving lives. Boats come second. So what they "suggest" should be given good consideration--even if it is not someone else might suggest.
For instance, if you knew someone had taken a hard knock on the head, but the had no signs of concussion? You might not want to scare them by saying "there's stuff leaking from your ears" but if either blood or cerebral fluid was leaking, that's considered a 100% reason to treat and evaluate further for probable concussion. Now, do you want the victim and wife to be panicked by the word "Consussion" ? Hell no, you just want them to get processed by the medical system, and that means get 'em off the boat. ASAP. Without "terrorizing" them with the deeper possibilities.
Just saying. There are times when the full story will not come out, for perfectly mundane but perfectly good reasons.

Good points. The skipper of Kelaerin did tell me that rescue swimmer did not pressure him at all to abandon ship. Just gave him the options and the short time frame they had to operate in. The decision was made by the skipper.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Paul L

The USCG has towed many boats in. Often from offshore to then meet up with a commercial tower close in. We were in a storm off Cape Hatteras that resulted in multiple mayday calls. At least one had a long tow in by the CG from way offshore.

I’m afraid your not getting what I am saying, yes the USCG has towed and will I’m sure continue to do so, on a case by case basis. I’d be surprised though if before they attempt any tow, that they don’t have to first offer it to any private agency that wants it.
Years ago the US ARMY used to provide military Medivac helicopters free to the public within range of a Military base, this was called MAST if you want to look it up, Military Assistance to Safety and Traffic I think.
Anyway they were made to stop, the local Hospital with its Lifeflight couldn’t of course charge $10,000 if the Military did it for free. I was in Savannah Ga as a Helicopter mechanic when they were made to stop, so You not only get a BIG bill if your flown by Lifeflight, your transported in a tiny little helicopter that just due to its size and cargo capacity cannot carry the equipment that the much faster, much larger Military Helicopter can.

Only point I’m trying to make is that the US Government isn’t allowed to compete with private agencies apparently. It has nothing at all to do with what the USCG wants, it has to do with what they are allowed to do.

[Steve Bean]

For Bouncy castle: Yachtsaver is no longer in business; look up "Floatrail." Externally mounted inflatable flotation.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I’m afraid your not getting what I am saying, yes the USCG has towed and will I’m sure continue to do so, on a case by case basis. I’d be surprised though if before they attempt any tow, that they don’t have to first offer it to any private agency that wants it.
.....

It all comes down to whether the incident is deemed as in distress. There is a flow chart for the decision makers attached here. Also check chapter 4 here
https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/C...0M16130.2F.pdf

[Group9]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Only point I’m trying to make is that the US Government isn’t allowed to compete with private agencies apparently. It has nothing at all to do with what the USCG wants, it has to do with what they are allowed to do.

We saw that happen here in Mississippi after Katrina. Gulfport, Mississippi is home to a US Navy Seabee base, with acres and acres of heavy construction equipment and people who know how to operate them. Hours after the winds died down, they started clearing the impassable roads and streets there, working their way away from the base.

That lasted about three days, when all of the people who expected to become millionaires doing that job started screaming to their Congressmen in Washington DC. The Seabees were immediately ordered to stop and to return to base, and two months later, the road clearing was resumed in a much more haphazard and less efficient way by private companies.