Loss of KELAERIN Rescue of Crew June 2018

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

It’s a plastic boat. Plastic deforms under pressure. When a boat is thrown off a wave the hull and deck twist and all the dimensions change momentarily. Door and hatch openings change shape and latches may be no longer in line with their catches. That could be why the hatch and lockers all popped open. It may have nothing to do with strength or quality of the item.

An example of this is when a boat is lifted out of the water the engine alignment changes.

I have been waiting for this to come up, I was just guessing that if and when the boat is inspected there may be no damage to the hatch.
I have an alternate theory, but as it's just a wild guess based on no actual data I guess I'll keep quiet.
I don't think a deck can flex enough for a hatch to come open without serious damage to the deck, but boats do flex, no one can argue that

A boat can flex a little, but not all that much before stress cracks show up.
we have all Im sure seen boats that if the rigging is over tight, the interior doors are jammed shut though, and that is due to flexure.
I'm thinking though if there was so much flexure in the cabinetry, there are broken loose bulkheads etc.

What is so unusual in this case, is the boat exists, it can be inspected.

[Eight Sails]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Maybe, but you can’t design against every possible failure.... If you look at many of the newer high volume production boats, you’ll find, many things that just don’t seem very seaworthy and or survivable in heavy weather, often simple things like sharp counter corners and no handholds in big, wide open Salons. It’s because heavy weather survival is not what that boat is built for, it’s not it’s mission.

I can agree with that and at the same time believe that a manufacturer of cost-engineered hatches for volume-produced boats shouldn't market them as "Ocean" hatches if that's not really the mission and they were designed to meet coastal cruising requirements. I don't mean to slag Lewmar for building affordable hatches that meet the needs of the majority of cruisers who will never sail over the horizon. I do mean to suggest that assuring fitness for purpose and accurately representing product capabilities are squarely in the manufacturer's domain.

The stock advice for offshore sailors is "Picture your boat upside down." I'm challenged by the notion that it might be OK if manufacturers of offshore gear don't do the same and, in particular, that designing a hatch with unspecified ability to withstand accidental opening forces (even when new and in perfect, unworn condition) might be good practice.

Maybe Lewmar does have specs for this; I don't know. I'm pretty sure, though, that at the moment your boat gets smacked down, if you're in that unfortunate position, you'll want to have more trust in your hatches than you have in your locker doors. Whatever any manufacturer does, the owner's responsibility over time is to maintain or renew as much of the original strength of mission-critical gear as possible, and to consider modifications or replacements appropriate to the intended use of the boat.

[JPA Cate]

It can be amazing how much fiberglass boats flex. Maybe not Island Packets, but we have seen Catalinas, imported into Oz, where the owner said to our friend the broker, "I couldn't stand up in my boat this afternoon", when he had gone up on the hard. And I just stood there and clenched my teeth so as to say nothing. It had flexed about 4 inches, where it sat on the keel. There is a cycling limit to this kind of cycle. It will most likely become someone else's problem. Interference by elderly females is not appreciated in a situation like this.

We have also seen Hanses of different lengths, sporting the well known "Catalina Smile". Poor guys.

Ann

[gmakhs]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

It can be amazing how much fiberglass boats flex. Maybe not Island Packets, but we have seen Catalinas, imported into Oz, where the owner said to our friend the broker, "I couldn't stand up in my boat this afternoon", when he had gone up on the hard. And I just stood there and clenched my teeth so as to say nothing. It had flexed about 4 inches, where it sat on the keel. There is a cycling limit to this kind of cycle. It will most likely become someone else's problem. Interference by elderly females is not appreciated in a situation like this.

We have also seen Hanses of different lengths, sporting the well known "Catalina Smile". Poor guys.

Ann

American build boats have less classification requirements .... EU boats are stronger and safer due to regulations .

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by gmakhs

American build boats have less classification requirements .... EU boats are stronger and safer due to regulations .

Is this a joke?

[gmakhs]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Is this a joke?

If you check the regulations you will see that Europe union is stricter.
That's why you can't get a US boat (specially Catalina's)under EU flag with class A or B .
And everything under class B is just not strong enough .

[daletournier]

Ask good surveyors that aren't of European or US origin what their opinions are.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by gmakhs

If you check the regulations you will see that Europe union is stricter.
That's why you can't get a US boat (specially Catalina's)under EU flag with class A or B .
And everything under class B is just not strong enough .

The regulations were conceived by the European Boat Manufacturers to prevent foreign competition, they do not make for better boats.

If you want quality cruising boats, look at Pacific Seacraft or Island Packets. They make quality boats in Europe also e.g. Amel. But this has nothing to do with CE certification. There are lots of CE compliant bad boats built and so are good ones.

[daletournier]

Ann, can you be more specific regarding flexing 4 inches? The backs hanging down? Also what's meant by can't walk in it?
I'll be hauling my boat again at the end of the year, never noticed this the first time but will closely looking this time.

[gmakhs]

Originally Posted by MartinR

The regulations were conceived by the European Boat Manufacturers to prevent foreign competition, they do not make for better boats.

If you want quality cruising boats, look at Pacific Seacraft or Island Packets. They make quality boats in Europe also e.g. Amel. But this has nothing to do with CE certification. There are lots of CE compliant bad boats built and so are good ones.

CE certification has to do with hull strength and right up ability, plus the boat ability to survive harsh conditions I don't see how those rules are set to block competition.

[noelex 77]

My view is the CE standards are set so low in many areas that the net effect is counterproductive in terms of safety.

Consider that the Lewmar hatch that has attracted criticism on this thread is fully certified for Cat A for mounting even as a foredeck hatch. Then consider that Lewmar make three less sturdy hatch models and these have exactly the same certification.

On the same subject, many would question the permitted use for Cat A vessels of having opening portholes on the hull sides and close to the waterline. There is no requirement for these to be recessed or for storm shutters to be fitted.

Hatches and port-lights are only a small aspect of the requirements, but they serve to illustrate how low the bar is set.

It has been suggested that any standard no matter how low the requirement is better than nothing, but I am not so sure. The boat buying public no longer seem to be concerned with details such as hatches and seacocks and I suspect part of this is because they feel reassured that these items have passed standards that certify their use for offshore ocean conditions. I have heard salesmen use the Cat A certification to dismiss any concerns raised about equipment suitability.

Finally, there is the question of the cost of certification, especially for the smaller boatbuilders. Could this money be better spent?

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

When you are 60+ years old and 40 pounds over weight try launching a life raft in a gale with 10 foot seas. Then put on a gumby suit, tie the ditch bag to the gumby suit, jump in the drink, swim to the life raft, climb in and pull in the ditch bag. Most of the time you won’t make it into the raft. It’s just the reality for many cruisers.

I’m pretty fit comparatively and during Safety at Sea training for offshore racing they put us in a pool with our inflated PFDs on and a life raft. Getting into the raft was shockingly hard, even for the young and fit. Took every one a few tries and the lesson was not “learn how to do it” but rather “accept that this is going to be like climbing a greased flagpole no matter what”.

I remember wondering if it might be easier in a seaway if you could time it and be washed into the raft.

It’s was an eye opening and sobering experience.

[bcoletti]

If all facts had remained the same ... what would happened if KELAERIN had been an equally size CATAMARAN? Flipped, taken on water? Thoughts welcome - thanks

[a64pilot]

Remember 5 mph bumpers on automobiles?
Class A certification is just about as reliable and pertinent.

Hint the 5 mph bumpers only worked when hit exactly as the test they had to pass was applied, any other type of force caused more damage than if they were not 5 mph bumpers.

To be fair, I think IP’s are so stiff largely due to the full keel, it’s acts as an external to the hull stiffener, plus it supports the Boat pretty much full length when it’s on the hard, it’s not that they are “better” just different is all.

However back to the how strong or well built should an Ocean crossing Boat be? How many water tight bulkheads? Should a boat that doesn’t have positive buoyancy when full of water even be considered? Single rudder? That’s crazy, you need multiple independent rudders, how many boats have been lost due to loss of steering? I’d bet more than tens times as many as have been lost from hatch failures.

You can’t drive risks to zero, and as you get close it rapidly becomes a point of diminishing returns cost wise and the item begins to lose its usefulness for its intended mission.

There is such a thing as “good enough”, and sometimes good enough, isn’t.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by bcoletti

If all facts had remained the same ... what would happened if KELAERIN had been an equally size CATAMARAN? Flipped, taken on water? Thoughts welcome - thanks

Seeing as how we can’t even come to an agreement on exactly what happened to the accident Boat, you expect someone to extrapolate to a different design?
Or are you just trying to stir the pot?