Loss of KELAERIN Rescue of Crew June 2018

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Bomar (not Lewmar) hatches, at least the 36 year old ones on my boat, all have aluminum catches that are secured with SS bolts. I find it hard to believe that any hatch maker would use plastic latches on a large opening hatch rated for ocean serviced.

Most commercial hatches have plastic handles/latches. They are OK when new but do suffer from UV degradation as they age.

Of more concern is that the handles/latches are generally secured to the perspex rather than the aluminium frame itself. The perspex tends to become brittle with age and the adhesive holding the perspex to the frame degrades.

Regulations require that the hatch can be opened from the outside which does not help strength. The handle has to rotate, and with a penetration through the perspex achieving a long term waterproof seal with green water is difficult. Wet bedding is not a safety issue but does affect the quality of life onboard. The need for external handles also compromises security.

I suspect hatch design did not play a large role in this situation but it would be nice to see some improvements in marine hatch design, especially considering the cost of these items.

I feel very sorry for the owners and wish them all the best.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Paul L

It is unreasonable to expect 30 years of UV and use not to reduce the effectiveness of plastic dogs and hinges.

They are on the inside, not much UV there.
My plastic hull? So it’s scrap too? I’m being sarcastic to try to show that you can’t make generic statements about plastic, some of it unfortunately is extremely UV resistant, some not. Some just ages and loses its plasticizers and just becomes weak and cracks, think car interior for instance, some not.
Depends entirely on what we mean by “Plastic” it’s a very encompassing term,

Mine have no external handles.
If hatches can be opened from the outside, why do we bother to lock our boats?

While I do not stand on mine, I have seen others that do. Assumption is if a 250 lb person can walk on them, the plastic is pretty strong.

Perspex is I believe a trade name and is the same plastic as what if often called Plexiglass.
I’d assume my hatches may be Lexan , just based on how easy they seem to scratch and that people stand on them.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Paul L

It is unreasonable to expect 30 years of UV and use not to reduce the effectiveness of plastic dogs and hinges.

The hinges and dogs are on the inside of the hatch, mostly UV shielded by the smoked Lexan. And I would expect what UV damage they do get to be mostly limited to surface damage, not deep structural damage.

That sort of UV could (does), however, significantly affect any exposed adhesive bonds. These hatches do not have the sort of UV shield over adhesive lines that is expected in auto glass and commercial window applications. I have seen the lexan pop up/out due to this failure mode (and the fact the lexan is quite thin with large span and thus flexes more than it 'should')

What I have seen of structural failures (rather than the above adhesive failures) of these ocean hatch/port failures has appeared to be mostly in the rivets and just simply undersized hinges and dogs - undersized for wave impact loads - more of an issue for ports, which open 'in' and the hinges actually have to carry the impact load. Although I have seen some of these handles just simply snapped off in use (trying to get the hatch dogged tight) - perhaps bad injection moldings - I'm not sure.

I would like to see a photo of this specifically damaged hatch before we dump too hard on lewmar here in this specific instance.

But hatches are an essential component of one of the core 'safety' mandates ("keep water outside the boat") . . . So, if anyone is looking for 'strong' hatches - I can recommend freeman marine (just a satisfied customer after having some disappointment with even quite expensive recreational hatches) - actual commercial grade. And our door came from these folks - also excellent http://www.diamondseaglaze.com/produ...-marine-doors/

[belizesailor]

Same boat has bee recovered I think:

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...8&share_type=t

If so, the Coasties not only saved their bacon, but recovered their boat too...they really ought to throw a thank you party for them!

[hpeer]

From the pic she looks to be setting close to her lines. I wonder if she was pumped out before tow?

[estarzinger]

photo from the other side - does not add very much . . .



Mainsail damage is clearer - vertical shreds near foot - not sure what would cause that - beating against the lazy jacks? Perhaps could still have been set with 2nd reef in.

Jib looks perfect, as does bagged staysail.

Fuel jugs on deck - tied to stanchions - not bent

better view of the two outboards still on pulpit

hpeer is right - she does look at least vaguely on her lines - but going back and looking at the helo video - she seems at least near her lines there also - the transom V still lifts clear of the waterline. May well still have a bunch of water in her, just for discussion - lets just say she is down 3" on her normal cruising lines (I doubt it is more than that) - Using a guess at lbs/in of immersion - that would be 70 cu ft of water - which would 'only' be very roughly 1/2 ft of water in the boat (assuming a relatively flat bottom/shallow bilge, she may have a deeper bilge).

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by hpeer

From the pic she looks to be setting close to her lines. I wonder if she was pumped out before tow?

I would think so... the CG are pretty savvy about free surface effects, gross loading and additional damage, and they for sure would have suitable pumps.

I was surprised (and very pleased) that they towed the boat in. Could this indicate a return to the days of yore when this sort of service from them was common? At any rate, good on 'em!

Jim

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by hpeer

From the pic she looks to be setting close to her lines. I wonder if she was pumped out before tow?

I wondered the same, perhaps her own pumps took care of it.
There were four it sounded like, even if severely restricted if some water could get through they likely dewatered the boat, maybe.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Mine have no external handles.

You are lucky. Legislation now requires external hatch handles at least on foredeck hatches. The manufacturers make them as small as possible, such as these shown in red.

They penetrate through the perspex and as they external are not protected from UV. There is typically a plastic pin that can be engaged inside to “lock” the hatch but the external handle makes it relatively easy to force the hatch open.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I was surprised (and very pleased) that they towed the boat in. Could this indicate a return to the days of yore when this sort of service from them was common? At any rate, good on 'em!



Jim

I don think they can, I believe they have to offer the work to any private agencies if they service the area, and can only assist if they decline the work.
US Government can’t take work away from private organizations.

Years ago a School bus full of kids was washed down river near Ft Hood, we offered to find any survivors, and there were plenty by flying and finding them with our FLIR, and were turned down. They used their Police helicopters, we would have found them faster.
Ft Hood aviation became very heavily involved the year Yellowstone burned, but that was only because it was a Federal Park.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I was surprised (and very pleased) that they towed the boat in. Could this indicate a return to the days of yore when this sort of service from them was common? At any rate, good on 'em!

Jim

I am also. It's not part of their mission. There must be a reason though.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Legislation now requires

Noelex - what regulation/Legislation please? EC certification A?

Edit: ah, I found what I think you are referring to - handles required only if it is a specified iso 9094 escape hatch

"...Minimum size for ISO 9094 escape hatches. Hatch must have external handle option for use in ISO 9094"

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Noelex - what regulation/Legislation please? EC certification A?

Yes, this is EC regulation for Cat A.

[ka4wja]

As I said couple days ago...Gotta' Love those Coasties!!
I always had great respect for their SAR abilities, but also never met one who wasn't a really nice person!! (you know, the polar opposite of a TSA agent!)

Okay, now onto the topic...
(btw, I got delayed at lunch today....and Evans musta' been reading my mind, 'cuz he took my words...
EDIT: A whole 'nother page of posts since I started typing this....you guys are fast!


As we now see a photo of the boat, there is a good deal becoming clearer to me...



The first two issues that seem fairly clear (to me) is that this is a nice strong boat, that suffered a knock-down....(not a full roll / 360)
{the wind gen blades, lazy jacks, outboards, dorades, radar radome (and mounting pole), roller-furling genoa and sheets, mainsail "stack-pak", stanchions, etc., as well as the solar panels, etc., all seem to be intact and serviceable....not sure if the Coasties ran the flag up, but if not, even their American flag survived...}

The next couple issues that seem pretty clear (to me) now, are that there are two "companionway hatches" (one forward, going into the main salon; and one aft, going into the aft cabin)....and that while the dinghy is gone, I don't see any real damage to the foredeck (where I assume it was stowed / secured?), but do see what should be a wooden chock for the dinghy on the deck??






Also, what's fairly clear (to me) now, is that the dodger / bimini / canvas enclosure that was there, is gone...this is not surprising, 'cuz in a knock-down, the wave (breaking or not) is certainly big enough to tear the canvas clean off and bend/break the small SS tubing, etc...


Having two companionway hatches, it's certainly possible (probable?) that there was confusion in describing what "hatch" was open or closed (or even just the wrong wording), and/or even what hatch was damaged / torn open / stove in, etc...
I will let Evans, et al, flush this all out....



What cannot be seen is the steering pedestal....but...
But, piecing things together....my educated guess is that the wave knocked 'em down hard, throwing him hard against something (steering pedestal?) and/or other things hitting the pedestal, etc. breaking it free??

Also, while not clear how severe a head injury he sustained, I know from personal experience how a concussion feels...surprisingly, after being knocked unconscious for about one minute or so, and then after the first 30 seconds or so of consciousness, I "felt fine", but within 10 to 15 minutes it was clear that I wasn't even close to "fine"....(luckily I was at the dock, and was taken to the ER....stayed all day, but was released in the evening, and had a rather "clueless" state of mind for those hours...
So, while we don't know the extent of the head injury, it is very likely that he was conscused....and whether the USCG rescue swimmer needed to "convince" him or not, quite possibly their helo rescue saved both of their lives...

Since none of us were there, and none of us knows what was going on inside the brain of an injured man, even if some/many of us would do something different, I'm not second-guessing their decision to leave via USCG Helo...
(however, I still question following raw computer model weather, and ignoring US NWS/NOAA weather....even if, in some cases, they may be similar, I still stand behind my words that relying on raw models versus the experienced human forecasting, is a questionable practice...maybe in the future my mind will be changed, I'm open to it....but, not today..)

Originally Posted by estarzinger

nice boat, give the design credit for looking after itself.

shout out to the USCG - great job recovering

Decent photo unfortunate the cockpit and stern deck obscured and fuzzy

I see two intact hatches on the front of the boat, and I believe one on the stern deck (but that area is very fuzzy in the photo). I don't see a big hole - missing hatch?

Cockpit has two companionways - one fore and other aft?

Solar panel there, as in bimini (or at least its stainless), dorade in place (in our worst two wave strikes the dorades were taken both times), stanchions not bent (at least the ones we can see), wind blades still on the generator (those are often stripped off in bad knock downs). Anchor in place. Two large outboards on the stern pulpit?

I see a wooden block in front of the hatch (just in front of the mast) - was that life raft storage, or was it stored on the stern deck.

(as I mentioned above) the interior should be a total write off, if there is/has been a ton of water in the boat. And that probably makes the whole boat a total constructive write off for insurance purposes (if there is insurance). You could potentially get a really nice deal from the insurance company if you wanted to rebuild it.

Again, a big salute to the USCG!!

fair winds...

John


BTW, just a side note...for those that don't like "plastic", please remember there are a LOT of different kinds of "plastic"....not the least of which is Marelon....I would go off on any tangents here, just saying anything can be broken / damaged, plastic or not...

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

They are on the inside, not much UV there.
My plastic hull? So it’s scrap too? I’m being sarcastic to try to show that you can’t make generic statements about plastic, some of it unfortunately is extremely UV resistant, some not. Some just ages and loses its plasticizers and just becomes weak and cracks, think car interior for instance, some not.
Depends entirely on what we mean by “Plastic” it’s a very encompassing term,

Mine have no external handles.
If hatches can be opened from the outside, why do we bother to lock our boats?

While I do not stand on mine, I have seen others that do. Assumption is if a 250 lb person can walk on them, the plastic is pretty strong.

Perspex is I believe a trade name and is the same plastic as what if often called Plexiglass.
I’d assume my hatches may be Lexan , just based on how easy they seem to scratch and that people stand on them.

The hatches are acrylic. They all craze in the tropics. The grey plastic hinges and dogs also go flat grey on the surface and lighter in color, indicating to me UV type damage. How much strength that is lost is unknown, along with how much of a safety factor is in the original.