Loss of KELAERIN Rescue of Crew June 2018

[cyan]

Originally Posted by daletournier

The dinghy being washed off may of caught the hatch somehow. A line from the dinghy snagged under it maybe?

Interesting. Sure- but is there enough of a lip to snag?
This has me looking at some really old hatches...

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by cyan

Did the entire hull get squished when it crashed down sideways/upside-down, deforming and causing an internal high pressure event that popped the hatch out like stepping on a 2-liter plastic soda bottle and shooting the cap? Did the whole thing deform? Dunno, but I'm now wondering if such hatches should have much bigger dogs?

I doubt it, these are well built/overbuilt boats, and to produce any meaningful pressure inside by deformation, you need BIG hull movements. Also there are plenty of places for the air to vent. The dinghy painter catching the hatch for example would explain it.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by MartinR

I doubt it, these are well built/overbuilt boats, and to produce any meaningful pressure inside by deformation, you need BIG hull movements. Also there are plenty of places for the air to vent. The dinghy painter catching the hatch for example would explain it.

Perhaps, but even a 2 meter wall of water slamming down a 45’ hull on its side would be north of 200 tonnes of sudden impact force. I can’t imagine any overbuilt boat that would not do some serious flexing in such an event in a vector it was never designed for.. The violent interior damage might agree here.

It would be great if someone inspects the hatch and reports back, now that the boat is in California. Lawyers and insurance companies might frown upon that idea though.

[Snowpetrel]

There was a case a few years ago of a boat hove too somewhere off the Brazil/Argentinian Coast that got rolled or knocked down by a large breaker. One of its modern hatches also got ripped off. And I think the skipper sustained a head injury as well. I remember it was discussed on CF. Can't find the link..

[El Pinguino]

La Rosa... running offshore with a wind off the land... I think it was more than the hatch being stove in.... 2013?

Down by Rio Gallegos or that general area....

[El Pinguino]

Here you go...

https://petepowell.wordpress.com

' A big, bad, breaking wave caught us sideways and rolled the boat through 360 degrees. Hatches collapsed; the heater chimney was ripped clean; the mast snapped at deck level and water poured in everywhere. Our inflatable dinghy was torn in half.'

More info here http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-126027-2.html

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

While trying to track down info on the recovery of Kelaerin I came across this... https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/t...elaerin.60576/

wherin was this...

'Thank you for your constructive criticism, I would like to add a few things to my wife's account. 1. Both companionway hatches were closed and the drop boards were in, the main cabin skylight hatch, which is a Lewmar ocean series 70 that had been closed and dogged since departing Honolulu, was ripped open and most of the water entered there. 2. The boat was under control, we were not being pooped or boarded by any seas, using a drogue or streaming warps to slow down may have resulted in less steerage and being pooped.
I was not wearing weather gear">foul weather gear because I was not getting wet but I was bundled up in a sweat shirt, fleece jacket and even longjohns.
We have owned Kelaerin for 28 years, everything had a place and everything was in it's place. Think how your own boat would fare if you picked it up, turned it upside down and shook it with several tons of water in it.'

and

'I don't think you have a good understanding of what actually happened. We were not fighting for our lives, we were just working our way through some cruddy weather, the wave, and there was only this one, that caused the capsized was bigger and traveling perpendicular to the waves we were on. We did not slew off or broach, this one wave hit us broadside with huge force, picked us up and threw down the wave face almost upside down. A lot of the water was scooped up over the low side. When the wave passed and the boat righted we continued steering squared off with the waves as before only this time the Edsoon steering pedestal was broken off. At it's base.
There was no need to screw plywood over anything the hatches were all there and no ports were stove in. Kelerin is fitted with 4 electric bilge pumps and one large manual pump as well as several manual portable pumps. As far as crew there are quite a few mom and pop cruising boats out there who would disagree with that - extra food, extra water consumption not mention attitudes.
To the guy who said he capsized his boat in the Caribbean and everything stayed in place..great! My gimbaled stove didn't jump off the gimbals it tore the finals off the bulkhead, How do you lash that?
Out of 45 solid teak doors only 4 remained in place and they all had turn button locks not just snap holders, they were ripped off their hinges and some were broken others had broken door jambs. Some waves are bigger than others-some capsizes are more violent'.

That might sort some of the conjecture that has been bouncing around hereabouts....

Well found Ping, this explains a lot as I was surprized the main hatch would have been left open. More likely he opened it afterwards, or its possible the wave opened it if it didn't have secure latches of some sort.

The violence of the knockdown is evident by the way the stove had its gimbals ripped off the bulkhead.

Thanks also for the link to la rosa's loss.

[El Pinguino]

I think La Rosa meant 13 foot seas.... I've lain ahull overnight within sight of the loom of the lights of Deseado in a SWly blow in April when southbound.... offshore from Rivadavia there would be quite a bit more fetch but I still don't think 13 metres is possible... very steep and very ugly? yes....
Mind you when your bum is only a foot above the sea waves tend to look bigger than they really are...

[estarzinger]

My writing is often criticised as 'harsh' and as a 'curmudgeon'. That is not my intent (to be harsh) - it is just my personal writing (and thinking) style (direct, challenging, probing and factual). I have become pretty careful in the way I write on the internet, but my basic style is always quite there. I (usually) do not at all mean to offend anyone (very occasionally I do mean to, certainly not in this case) - and I am sorry if/when I do.

On more substantive topic - if anyone is at all close to the boat - I would be very interested in seeing close-up photos of (a) the life raft mounts), (b) this big mid-ships hatch, (c) the Compaignway, (d) the steering pedestal, and general photos of the the deck (I've been curious if stanchions were bent - can't tell from the helo video).

I expect the interior will have been completely wrecked by the interior water action. Water sloshing back and forth for a good while does a lot of damage - possibly even popping bulkheads and hatches/ports, so, unfortunately, may not be much there left to see.

Originally Posted by Paul L

During the two hours they waited to pull the Eprib.

So, at that time, they both (apparently - according to the wife's write-up) agreed they could continue sailing and just needed a pump - suggesting they considered the steering situation to be manageable for the (relatively short) distance they had to go.

[hpeer]

Accident investigations need to be seperate from the concept of “supporting the crew victims.” These are two separate processes.

From our perspective we are not trained investigators but we are humans so we can provide support.

We have a couple of folks who ARE trained/experienced in the process of accident analysis and they are bribing that perspective to the discussion. It is not all touchy feely and asks some emotionally difficult questions, as it should.

If we are to truly learn something about this accident we need to follow the accident investigation path which must look at all factors: technical, emotional, perceptional.

These folks are exposing us to the rigors of the professional mind, at risk of being criticized. They are doing us a favor. Let’s listen and learn.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by cyan

Interesting. Sure- but is there enough of a lip to snag?
This has me looking at some really old hatches...

An ocean 70 hatch can snag a line. It depends on the size of line obviously but it's possible.

As we think about using new high tech, (i.e. smaller) line these little unintended consequences come bubbling up.

https://www.lewmar.com/node/11293?v=24350

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Accident investigations need to be seperate from the concept of “supporting the crew victims.” These are two separate processes.

From our perspective we are not trained investigators but we are humans so we can provide support.

We have a couple of folks who ARE trained/experienced in the process of accident analysis and they are bribing that perspective to the discussion. It is not all touchy feely and asks some emotionally difficult questions, as it should.

If we are to truly learn something about this accident we need to follow the accident investigation path which must look at all factors: technical, emotional, perceptional.

These folks are exposing us to the rigors of the professional mind, at risk of being criticized. They are doing us a favor. Let’s listen and learn.

Yes, an accident investigation will seem cruel to many but is necessary to find out what really happened. First hand accounts rarely match the facts.

[estarzinger]

for what it is worth . . lewmar ocean hatch . . .



They are pretty 'flush'. A line can snag, but it would be unfortunate.

They are not known to have the strongest hinges and dogs. We had a good friend (Commodore of the OCC) who had lewmar ocean side ports blown off by a wave on the (ocean) approach to Puerto Montt. All the dogs and hinges blew off. There may be an aging problem.

[danielamartindm]

The concept of breaking "rogue waves" has always fascinated. I suspect that they are mathematically far more common than we think, and that they account for many otherwise unexplained disasters at sea.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Paul L

It's in Northern California

No, Im sorry it's not. I Used to have to travel to Ft Bragg to fly their simulator, Savannah didn't have one.
It's also the home of Special Ops and is by number of Soldiers the largest Military installation in the World