Loss of KELAERIN Rescue of Crew June 2018

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Hmmmm . . . .

Wife's comment suggests the companionway was at least partially open ("tons of water flowed in' - hard to see believing that if it was solidly closed). And I doubt she was wrong about that, as if it had been closed, she would have had to open it to get out. He says it was totally closed.

His text seems to been specifically crafted to lead one to believe that steering (using the wheel) would have been near impossible - it was 'snapped off at the base'. (what sort of picture comes to mind when someone tells you something is snapped off at the base?) When in fact she comes up and he is steering just fine, and they (or the wind vane) continue to do so until lifted off the boat.

Yea, a well-spoken lawyer might be able to make those things sound consistent, but in the real world - not so much for me at least.

I am not sure we can learn very much from exploring this angle - except to confirm the general principle - Interview 6 eyewitnesses and you get 6 different perspectives (or perhaps 7); it's a well-proven phenomenon. An investigatory skill is untangling that complexity.

Well they both told me first hand about the steering and the story was consistent. It was a major item in their evaluation of the situation.

[Larry Florida]

Will be interesting to see how the boat fared if available.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Well they both told me first hand about the steering and the story was consistent. It was a major item in their evaluation of the situation.

Their evaluation of the situation:

(a) when they agreed together they could continue and just needed a pump from the helo;

or (b) the skipper's curt direction, after his private conversation with the USCG swimmer, which surprised the wife, that they were abandoning (when the wife still thought they could and should continue?)?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Paul L

The boat was towed into Ft Bragg.

Ft Bragg, is in North Carolina

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I have heard enough incident reports to simple be skeptical about this one which is unusual and convenient and contradictory with his wife's. It is not at all unusual for people's memories of incidents to be 'convenient - nothing intentional just a human trait.But perhaps it is true.



I am glad they found and recovered the boat. I hope she is brought back to bristol condition - she deserves it. That recovery does say something in and of itself about the survivability of the situation.

Nobody likes the guy who is seemingly disparaging someone, it's human nature, they see you as kicking him when he is down, I know that is not your intent, but some will see it that way.



I have been in a few accidents, and the worse ones, I remember essentially noting about the accident itself. I just spent a few months at the Shepherds center, with our Son, which is a place that specializes in brain and spinal cord injuries, the brain will try to put things together, and it often will fool you, what your sure you remember, you don't your brain has made up a story for you if you will, that fits the conditions.

This gentleman I believe hit his head pretty good, maybe hard enough to not remember the incident. I know a couple of wrecks I have had, I don't remember the wreck itself.

A victim is usually a pretty bad witness, ask any experienced cop, it's only that our brain will fill in the gaps for us, and sometimes gets it wrong.

[transmitterdan]

The steering pedestal I think is held to the floor by 4 bolts. 2-3 of these could have pulled through the floor. Then the pedestal would have been wobbly but if held upright then steering may have worked. Until it throws a cable off a pulley. So long term, steering seems like a big problem.

I don't see much disconnect between wife and husband accounts. Wife spent a while down below getting oriented. Husband, with concussion, removes washboards trying to see if wife is ok. Wife comes to companionway and thinks the boards were out during the knockdown. When things go sideways quickly our brains try to fill in gaps of missing information to explain the current status. We all do it.

Before one knows a rescue is possible a good skipper may not start talking about abandoning ship. Once rescue is right there and a third clear headed person helps a banged up captain reach a rational decision to abandon ship it may seem like a sudden reversal by the wife.

Why don't we all just look for the lessons here and stop with the second and third guessing? It's a bit unseemly to call into doubt the memory of anyone who has been through such a serious traumatic event.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Ft Bragg, is in North Carolina

It's in Northern California

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Their evaluation of the situation:

(a) when they agreed together they could continue and just needed a pump from the helo;

or (b) the skipper's curt direction, after his private conversation with the USCG swimmer, which surprised the wife, that they were abandoning (when the wife still thought they could and should continue?)?

During the two hours they waited to pull the Eprib.

[Jim Cate]

It's a bit unseemly to call into doubt the memory of anyone who has been through such a serious traumatic event.

Can't agree with this. It may not be supportive to the victim but as several folks have pointed out, one's memory of traumatic events is often skewed. Hence, if we are to learn useful lessons from this unfortunate event, piecing together the real happenings is very important, and they very well may not completely jibe with the stories told.

I'm not implying that the victim is lying, but that his memory is incorrect, and that he is relating what he remembers, possibly with some after the fact alterations that seem to him to flesh out the sequence.

I'm not competent to do accident analysis... no training, no experience, and to be honest, not much interest in being involved in the process. But I am very interested in understanding the realities of the accident.

Like the question how can a flush deck hatch which is properly dogged be ripped off by the water? Stove in I can see easily, but there isn't much hatch above the deck level for the rapidly moving water to "grab" and apply enough transverse force to tear it from the deck or burst the hinges. Curious how that could happen.

And IIRC, both Evans and A64 have been actively involved in official investigations, so I tend to pay attention to their words.

Jim

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

....
Like the question how can a flush deck hatch which is properly dogged be ripped off by the water? Stove in I can see easily, but there isn't much hatch above the deck level for the rapidly moving water to "grab" and apply enough transverse force to tear it from the deck or burst the hinges. Curious how that could happen.

...

Jim

Perhaps the cabin top flexed.

[Pelagic]

I just wonder how "supportive" it is to an accomplished cruising couple to dissect their every word, challenge their recollection and to try and identify bad judgements....(in the name of learning).

If insured, I certainly don't want us to give the insurance adjuster any additional ammunition, to deny any claims.

My loyalty and best wishes are with this couple and whatever happened, they survived and so did their boat.

I started a separate Storm Preparation thread, specifically to avoid this kind of personal scrutiny.

While not "unseemly" to discuss this specific incident, it is definitely not wise and supportive to speculate on fault.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Perhaps the cabin top flexed.

This is exactly the type of question that interests me, and probably other ocean crossing souls. Thanks for this, Paul.

The real answer may not come from the two people involved... or maybe it will. Those of us who trust our lives to a bit of fiberglass and hardware are curious in a very serious manner. We want to learn from this. If any statements or questions sound "unseemly", then I hope we can appreciate the higher goal here.

As far as I know, a Lewmar Series 70 Ocean Hatch is about 2 feet by 2 feet with 2 plastic latches, and 2 (or 3 if older?) hinges. I never thought about it getting "ripped open". If the plastic latch material was replaced by aluminum, would the dogs hold better? Did the material suffer degradation from years in the tropics? My experience is mostly with smaller Lewmars, so do tell. A little leaking and a crack, but no big failures...Thoughts?

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by cyan

This is exactly the type of question that interests me, and probably other ocean crossing souls. Thanks for this, Paul.

The real answer may not come from the two people involved... or maybe it will. Those of us who trust our lives to a bit of fiberglass and hardware are curious in a very serious manner. We want to learn from this. If any statements or questions sound "unseemly", then I hope we can appreciate the higher goal here.

As far as I know, a Lewmar Series 70 Ocean Hatch is about 2 feet by 2 feet with 2 plastic latches, and 2 (or 3 if older?) hinges. I never thought about it getting "ripped open". If the plastic latch material was replaced by aluminum, would the dogs hold better? Did the material suffer degradation from years in the tropics? My experience is mostly with smaller Lewmars, so do tell. A little leaking and a crack, but no big failures...Thoughts?

I more suspect hatch deterioration over the years. From my earlier post on this

One thing I wonder about the Lewmar Ocean hatches. All of these end up crazing in the tropics after extended exposure. Cruiser maintenance on these is to occasionally replace a hinge or dog and to eventually reglaze. After reglazng they look really good. I wonder if after close to two decades these really need to be totally replaced. The UV and wear damage to the plastic parts is just too much. If this hatch had held the results might have been very different.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by cyan

This is exactly the type of question that interests me, and probably other ocean crossing souls. Thanks for this, Paul.

The real answer may not come from the two people involved... or maybe it will. Those of us who trust our lives to a bit of fiberglass and hardware are curious in a very serious manner. We want to learn from this. If any statements or questions sound "unseemly", then I hope we can appreciate the higher goal here.

As far as I know, a Lewmar Series 70 Ocean Hatch is about 2 feet by 2 feet with 2 plastic latches, and 2 (or 3 if older?) hinges. I never thought about it getting "ripped open". If the plastic latch material was replaced by aluminum, would the dogs hold better? Did the material suffer degradation from years in the tropics? My experience is mostly with smaller Lewmars, so do tell. A little leaking and a crack, but no big failures...Thoughts?

The dinghy being washed off may of caught the hatch somehow. A line from the dinghy snagged under it maybe?

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I more suspect hatch deterioration over the years. From my earlier post on this

Yeah-sorry, I saw your earlier post, but I thought there was perhaps a stove-in. Since the skipper's words state otherwise, I am now concerned by the hinges and latches. Frankly it is now hard to imagine a green-water hatch failure that sprung the hatch without ripping it off entirely. The shape of the bezel would lead one to believe that a sheering water force would press the hatch CLOSED with incredible force. Did the entire hull get squished when it crashed down sideways/upside-down, deforming and causing an internal high pressure event that popped the hatch out like stepping on a 2-liter plastic soda bottle and shooting the cap? Did the whole thing deform? Dunno, but I'm now wondering if such hatches should have much bigger dogs?