Loss of KELAERIN Rescue of Crew June 2018

[hpeer]

Back in the 70’s in was aircrew on USCG aircraft, before swimmers. I have no direct knowledge but I would be surprised as heck if there was not some guidance if not hard rules about how often a swimmer can deply in a given time and how must rest is required between deployments.

There is for air crew time so it’s somethjng they would be used to.

[Davie J.]

Running under bare poles is fine until it isn't. Read the accounts of the 1979 Fastnet Race: 5 sailors died, five boats sank, and at least 75 boats flipped upside down. It was later determined that many of the flipped boats were running under bare poles. It's a bad idea because the surface exposed to wind will be your free board. Your boat will want to orient broad to the wind which will make it more subject to the waves too. Therefore, you will have more rolling action and greater potential for flipping. Given complete attention to steering, you may be OK, but when that moment comes where your attention strays, look out. Heaving to may be hard for some to accept because it's like giving up to them. But, as you are aware, sailing requires devotion to safety and heaving to is safe.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Davie J.

Running under bare poles is fine until it isn't. Read the accounts of the 1979 Fastnet Race: 5 sailors died, five boats sank, and at least 75 boats flipped upside down. It was later determined that many of the flipped boats were running under bare poles. It's a bad idea because the surface exposed to wind will be your free board. Your boat will want to orient broad to the wind which will make it more subject to the waves too. Therefore, you will have more rolling action and greater potential for flipping. Given complete attention to steering, you may be OK, but when that moment comes where your attention strays, look out. Heaving to may be hard for some to accept because it's like giving up to them. But, as you are aware, sailing requires devotion to safety and heaving to is safe.

Bare poles WITH drogue seems like a drastically different discussion than bare poles WITHOUT drogue. No?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Laurie watson

You are of course trying to be funny, wrong time and place for that. The story says how professional the crew was, I expect it was one minute plus the required reserve. Instead of making stupid comments you should compliment the crew on a great rescue

No,
As a Professional Pilot and Retired Military pilot, he is correct, if he had actually run it to nearly flameout.
As I said earlier there are only 41 of those aircraft in existence, they are a National Asset, you don’t ever crash one.
Then there were also 6 souls on board, you don’t ever take that kind of risks with 5 other peoples lives.
Plus it would have most likely been the end of his or her Career and should be.
However as has been said I’m sure if for no other reason than we are hearing about it, it was one minute until reserve.
Yes they are Hero’s and should be congratulated, however they are also Professionals, and a Professional would not almost run out of fuel.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by cyan

Bare poles WITH drogue seems like a drastically different discussion than bare poles WITHOUT drogue. No?

Yes. When you can no longer carry any sail is the time to pop the drogue (or heave to).


Just taking the last bit of jib down moves the CE of the boat backwards and dramatically increases the risk of broach. I don't do it. I always leave a little bit -- even if it's just a couple of square meters -- of jib out when running off.

[hpeer]

A couple of years ago I talked to a gentleman who experienced something very similar, ended up being lifted off his salvageable boat in a hurry.

That part aside he had lost his engine and all electronics in a knockdown. He had deployed his drouge when that occurred. In hindsight, and after discussing the event with others, he concluded that he deployed the drogue too early. It had slowed him too much and made him more vulnerable than if he had been running. About 90 miles off Hatteras.

I personally know nothing, just relating another’s experience and take away.

Among our experts here what is the opinion, is it possible to deploy a drogue too early and thus increase risk?

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

I absolutely agree. I’m not sure I’d classify running under bare poles at 4-5 knots “comfortable”. I’d call it one step away from “ooer”. I’d be securing everything I could, and in the words of Skip Novak “going down below for a cup of tea”.

It’s actually not that bad. If they were doing 4-5 knots I’d say the wind was pushing 35 knots sustained. The big question is the sea state.

Running bare poles with a windvane is quite comfortable. It also sets you up to deploy a drogue whereas if you are hove to turning the boat around can be a risky maneuver.

I think everything points to a rogue wave. The windvane was set and she was asleep below. They were not expecting conditions to deteriorate past what they were then experiencing. The notion that they got lax because they were close to home doesn’t strike me as plausible. With that much experience you have your routine and you do what’s best for the boat.

[Davie J.]

Perhaps you're correct about a rogue wave, but 90% of rogue waves are an excuse for broaching. Rogue waves are a phenomenon that are really quite rare. My guess is that the helmsman wore himself out and lost controll just long enough to broach. We all know how tired one gets when hand steering in heavy seas.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by Davie J.

... But, as you are aware, sailing requires devotion to safety and heaving to is safe.

... or running with a drogue, or lying-to a sea anchor. Running under bare poles or lying ahull in extreme conditions is surrendering while showing a big middle finger to King Neptune.

The problem with lying ahull with the tiller/wheel lashed alee is that, down in a swell trough, the lull in the wind combined with the momentum of the boat can (and eventually will) cause it to yaw abeam to the next swell face.

Running under bare poles works fine until the boat surfs down a swell at tremendous speed and either broaches or smacks bow first into the trough, where the bow gets buried and hull speed reasserts itself in an instant, causing a roll or pitch pole. My own rule is: when the GPS shows a SoG of 1.5 times hull speed at any moment, it's time to throw out the sea anchor. (I have very little freeboard astern, so lying bow to is my only option.) My sea anchor has saved me and my vessel more than once. Plus, it's better to be down below cursing than on deck getting clobbered.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Davie J.

Perhaps you're correct about a rogue wave, but 90% of rogue waves are an excuse for broaching. Rogue waves are a phenomenon that are really quite rare. My guess is that the helmsman wore himself out and lost controll just long enough to broach. We all know how tired one gets when hand steering in heavy seas.

A long time ago, I would have thought as you appear to, but there is new data available on the frequency of rogue waves, and they are more common than had been previously thought. And, at least here in Oz, the insurance companies are aware of it.

The husband in a couple with whom we are friends was injured when their boat got rogue waved in Bass Straits. Experienced sailors, who had circumnavigated, they stayed with the boat, although she had to secure him below (back and head injuries). She brought him to the nearest harbor, for medical treatment. And, he's okay. The boat was repaired, and it was then they were told by the insurance co. rep of the new perspective on rogue waves.

Earlier this year, someone posted some data from NZ relative to waves in the vicinity of the Chatham Is, which also support the view of them being more common.

Ann

[FatBear]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Yes they are Hero’s and should be congratulated, however they are also Professionals, and a Professional would not almost run out of fuel.

He got the job done, saved two lives, and didn't run out of fuel, that seems pretty professional to me.

I used to do SARs in the Aleutians (one off the cliffs of Atka island when the reflecting 45' seas generated 65' interference peak nodes.) If you have never risked all to save a life before, you should try it. The rush never really leaves you. It makes squeaking in with one minute of fuel left seem like a very reasonable risk.

My congratulations to the sailors and to the aircrew. Now I guess you can see why there is so little recreational boating off the coasts of Oregon, Washington and on up northwards. Even just transiting through the area is risky.

[Davie J.]

A long time ago, I would have thought as you appear to, but there is new data available on the frequency of rogue waves, and they are more common than had been previously thought. And, at least here in Oz, the insurance companies are aware of it.

The husband in a couple with whom we are friends was injured when their boat got rogue waved in Bass Straits. Experienced sailors, who had circumnavigated, they stayed with the boat, although she had to secure him below (back and head injuries). She brought him to the nearest harbor, for medical treatment. And, he's okay. The boat was repaired, and it was then they were told by the insurance co. rep of the new perspective on rogue waves.

Earlier this year, someone posted some data from NZ relative to waves in the vicinity of the Chatham Is, which also support the view of them being more common.

[Davie J.]

I'm sure you're correct, but I haven't seen any of those reports. And, at 74 years of age, I have been on the water approximately 50 years and have logged thousands of miles without ever encountering a rogue wave. But I know it only takes one. Maybe mine will be soon.....

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Davie J.

Perhaps you're correct about a rogue wave, but 90% of rogue waves are an excuse for broaching. Rogue waves are a phenomenon that are really quite rare.

I'm guessing you don't live in the PNW - they aren't nearly as rare here as you seem to think. They are called "sneakers" around here. They are not just a threat to boats at sea. They have been known to capsize large fishing boats on the Columbia bar, with no time for a Mayday. And we are frequently reminded to never turn our backs to the sea on a beach - they can (and do) sweep people off the beach without warning. And in these waters that is often fatal. It is a small but very real risk, not to be dismissed so easily.

Greg

[Davie J.]

Hey JPA Cate! I don't know how I came to repeat your message. Ah! The miracles of modern science..................