Loss of KELAERIN Rescue of Crew June 2018

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

for me, there would have been one definite trigger to change tactics - which is that they were no longer making course, instead 'losing ground' to the south. That by itself would have caused me to go into whatever the best turtle tactic I had available. Then you could have rested/fed/etc, which is valuable in and of itself when about to close with the shore. And no reason to lose ground any faster than absolutely necessary, particularly as that can be a damn difficult coast to have to make northing up. They were just about the exact distance off for this to be a decently prudent course of action, close enough they can get in with 24 hours of the weather clearing but far enough off to be well out of the main traffic - it is just about exactly where you would have chosen (if given a choice) to rest up.

I also can suggest there were probably prior signs of 'bad wave shapes'; they might be subtle to read, but every time I was ever popped real hard I could identify an earlier sign that I should have listened to. I do suppose there is always a 'first time' and an exception to the rule . . . . but I never saw it.

Exactly estarzinger. Applying a turtle tactic describes it well.

Around 1979, I actually laid Ahull in those same waters in a S&S maxi originally called Charisma, in a December storm .

Waves swept the deck, bent the pedestal railings, smashed the magnetic compass and sheared reduction gear bolts.

But no one was hurt and we limped in under sail to Crescent City for Xmas repairs.

That area can be particularily nasty in a storm.

While you primarily have the strong southbound California current, strong coastal counter currents and the influence of the Columbia river create awkward steep sets that can surprise anyone still on deck.

Edit...I should also note that 2 freighters declared Mayday during that storm and one was lost with all hands.

While not able to maintain a lookout, we did maintain a radio watch on SSB 2182 and VHF 16, issuing Securitè warnings every 15 minutes of our approximate position (pre-GPS) and hove to status.

So you are alerting ships in the area and also mainland S&R.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I have never thought about making an easy parachute or drouge system for the bow before.

I just wonder if anyone has ever tried combining their primary anchor and deploying all chain with an attachable storm parachute as a sea anchor?

This keeps your bow to breaking seas, reduces weight dramatically at the bow and with windlass, keeps the parachute holding in deep water and makes it much easier to retrieve afterwards...

I'm sure it must have been tried, but I have no knowledge of this being discussed.

Except for the anchor part, that is my plan, however I think I want the 300’ of rode for some give.
I called the manufacturer of my sea anchor and he said do not use any chain or weight on the chute end, however he said chain is fine on the Boat end, to some extent I think letting out 100’ or so of chain is good to prevent chafe on the rode, and as you say, you recover with the windlass, I have a capstan for the rode.

I know current thinking is run a series drogue from the stern and run with the storm, however I’ll never be convinced that a boat can’t take the one in a million breaking rogue wave better head on than from the stern. Plus the whole surfing and broaching thing is something I had rather avoid.
Now In a race, maybe the stern drogue makes better sense, as your still making way.
Laying ahull is not something I’ll ever do intentionally. I would expect to be rolled doing that.

I’m also thinking that my Mantus chain hook on the chain with 100’ of 5/8” led back to a winch is a good idea, if she started swinging around, tightening up on that line ought to force her bow to the side and stop the swinging Pardey style.

And in all honesty if it did it’s job and saved us and the storm is over, I don’t think I would be to terribly upset if it couldn’t be recovered

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I have never thought about making an easy parachute or drouge system for the bow before.

I just wonder if anyone has ever tried combining their primary anchor and deploying all chain with an attachable storm parachute as a sea anchor?

This keeps your bow to breaking seas, reduces weight dramatically at the bow and with windlass, keeps the parachute holding in deep water and makes it much easier to retrieve afterwards...

I'm sure it must have been tried, but I have no knowledge of this being discussed.

I'd have nightmares of falling backwards down a wave and crunching the rudder with a storm parachute off the bow, with their reportedly intermittent holding ability. The weight might help, but would it tug the bow down at the wrong moment? Maybe a series drogue?

I seem to remember CF member "maxingout" describing the installation of custom chain plates on the bow of his privilege 39 for such a purpose.

I read somewhere that everyone has an opinion on drogues but very few have ever used one in anger...

[a64pilot]

As long as you have enough rode out, the chute will hold, your not going to crash backward.
My nightmare is surfing, broaching and rolling due to a big wave.
Don’t you think that is what happened here?

[cyan]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

As long as you have enough rode out, the chute will hold, your not going to crash backward.
My nightmare is surfing, broaching and rolling due to a big wave.
Don’t you think that is what happened here?

Yeah, I share your thoughts- I DO like the idea of the bow facing the nasty stuff... then I read something like this from Skip Novaks....
skip-novaks-storm-series-part-8-warps-and-drogues-256

Parachute anchors
The US Coast Guard report raises some serious issues about these types of drogues streamed from the bow. It ‘questions the veracity’ of claims that they offer bulletproof protection in storm survival conditions.

They may help a boat hold station in moderate weather, it says, but when a wave hits the bow the boat can be shunted astern, potentially causing damage to the rudder, breaking the line, rolling the boat or forcing water through the exhaust system and into the engine.

[a64pilot]

Ya pays your dues, and you take your chances.
I’d be much more likely to have a Jordon Series drogue, if I could buy one professionally made.
Apparently for some reason you cant?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Ya pays your dues, and you take your chances.
I’d be much more likely to have a Jordon Series drogue, if I could buy one professionally made.
Apparently for some reason you cant?

IIRC, Ace sailmakers do sell complete JSDs as well as kits.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by cyan

Yeah, I share your thoughts- I DO like the idea of the bow facing the nasty stuff... then I read something like this from Skip Novaks....
skip-novaks-storm-series-part-8-warps-and-drogues-256

Parachute anchors
The US Coast Guard report raises some serious issues about these types of drogues streamed from the bow. It ‘questions the veracity’ of claims that they offer bulletproof protection in storm survival conditions.

They may help a boat hold station in moderate weather, it says, but when a wave hits the bow the boat can be shunted astern, potentially causing damage to the rudder, breaking the line, rolling the boat or forcing water through the exhaust system and into the engine.

The surge backwards is a real threat. Years ago some friends were having their 40 odd foot Crowther cat delivered from Hawaii back to the mainland. Various delays caused the trip to commence in December (not a nice time of year for that voyage). At one point the boat was lying to a parachute in heavy wind and sea conditions and performed such a "great leap backward". It sheared off both rudders and gave both engines a salt water enema, leading to some serious issues. Something to consider for sure!

Jim

[Steadman Uhlich]

This thread may get many readers over time.

Some readers may not really understand the design differences of parachute type “sea anchors” and “Jordan Series Drogues (JSD)” among other devices and tactics that are often suggested for use during a storm.

I know some in this discussion have read about them both, and formed their own opinions (even if they have not used either or just used one). But, there may be many others who visit CF and have not yet reached that point (of a firm opinion).

To them (anyone who has not already read the designer’s argument for the JSD), I encourage reading the following website in order to get a better understanding of what the Jordan Series Drogue design is all about, and why it has been chosen by many experienced sailors as a device to use as a “last resort” during extreme storm conditions. There is background on the designer, the design concept, and especially what the designer considered vitally important differences in performance during extreme conditions.

Here is a link to that site that explains the Jordan Series Drogue design concept and build:
Jordan Series Drogue

________________

Let’s clear up one misconception about the JSD: its availability and how you can get one.

Up above one CF member questioned why a commercial (ready made) JSD could not be bought. In fact, it can be bought (they are custom made for your boat’s size). They are “made to order.” You can order a JSD to be made by sailmakers (including the one who hosts the above linked site). Or, you can choose to make one yourself, using freely available plans that the designer of the JSD (Mr. Jordan) made available to the public.
__________________

More reading?
In addition to the linked site (which has numerous pages of content with illustrations), I also encourage sailors to read the USCG report of their testing of the Jordan Series Drogue and other devices, in real world (breaking wave) conditions, and also in wave tanks too. In short, the USCG report provides some interesting reading, especially near the end. That report is online and you can find a link to it via that site I linked above.

Or use this link to it:
http://jordanseriesdrogue.com/pdf/dr...uardreport.pdf

Especially read the concluding paragraphs of that report, found near its end. It is a PDF file document. When you open the PDF, look down near the end to find page 68 of the PDF which is page 59 of the the Report. Look for the section 6.4 "Boat Design" and begin reading there. The PDF pages 68, 69, 70 should give you some of your answers. Here is a link to the Coast a Guard Test Report:

http://jordanseriesdrogue.com/pdf/dr...uardreport.pdf

Since that report was published, numerous other sailors have made or purchased a JSD and have taken it with them on voyages, and some have used them in actual storm conditions.
_____________________

What do I know?
I have not used a JSD in a storm, and I hope I never have to do so. There are some things in life you hope you never have to use or experience, but it is a good idea to know enough about them to make a wise decision and know how to use it, if they are ever needed. Most sailors may never need to use a JSD (or an exposure suit or life raft, etc.). But, it is a good idea to know about them so you can make a good decision if they are right for you and your type of sailing.

I have read the designer’s (Mr. Jordan) argument for it, I read the USCG report completely, and I have read numerous supporting anecdotes from other experienced sailors who have used a JSD. I see the logic and science and testing that went into it and I was impressed by the results of tests that compared it to other devices that were popular at the time. I have reached my own opinion after considering these things.

What is my opinion?
I think the JSD has a place on an ocean crossing sailboat and I would want to have one aboard (and deployed in some cases) if I found myself in extreme storm conditions.

______________

Common Sense CAN be wrong.

Finally, I think misconceptions about how or when to use it are common among sailors. I hope that sailors will take the time to learn more about the JSD from the designer (via his descriptions on that site I linked above) so they can avoid misconceptions and faulty information. In particular, I think it is important to read the good descriptions of the logic behind the series drogue (JSD) design, because some of the reasons may not be intuitive and may seem to contradict what some will call “common sense.” In other words, what may seem “common sense” (e.g. “the pointy end of a boat always faces the oncoming waves”) could be wrong, because of physics, hydrodynamics, and how boats have been proven to move (and be damaged) in storm related extreme seas.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

The surge backwards is a real threat. Years ago some friends were having their 40 odd foot Crowther cat delivered from Hawaii back to the mainland. Various delays caused the trip to commence in December (not a nice time of year for that voyage). At one point the boat was lying to a parachute in heavy wind and sea conditions and performed such a "great leap backward". It sheared off both rudders and gave both engines a salt water enema, leading to some serious issues. Something to consider for sure!

Jim

Thanks for adding that example.

[a64pilot]

OK I guess you can contract someone to build anything and call that manufactured.
However I know of no manufacturer of a series drogue, not saying there isn’t one, but is there?

I also can’t imagine what kind of force would be required to throw my boat backwards connected to an 18’ parachute. It would take the chute moving in a moving column of water that they boat was not moving in.

To do some research I’d point you here, which has a lot more case history and isn’t so biased
http://dragdevicedb.com

There are two things I think important for any drag device, and I have never deployed any device, nor gone through that kind of weather.
1. Have it already rigged up and a way to easily deploy it, I intend to have my line led back and forth on my stanchions and zip tied off, already connected to the anchor chain, so that all that has to happen is for me to toss the sea anchor bag in the water.
2. Deploy it early, I’m a chicken, I’m likely to deploy it and never really needed to, but do so before conditions get to where it’s nearly impossible to deploy and if night is coming and weather is getting worse, I’m throwing the bag, things only get worse when you can’t see.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

mmmmm . . . yes, I'v been there, my comment stands. Usually, the 'sign' in fact was more feel than sight.

being able to function at 3 am is necessary seamanship. Around that is usually when the bad stuff happens.

Well of course you need to deal with 3am. It is just much harder to judge seas when there is no light. You can see a lot with a little light,but some nights are really dark.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I also can’t imagine what kind of force would be required to throw my boat backwards connected to an 18’ parachute. It would take the chute moving in a moving column of water that they boat was not moving in.

If the waves were 10 meters, your chute would need to be safely below the lowest part of EVERY wave... submerged by >10 meters. If not, BOING- there goes your boat backwards. (and the chute in the air) Another failure mode cited by the USCG is the line snapping. Gotta do some math, but the number of tons of pull on that 18' chute could be a big number, way beyond the capability a 1" line no?
I DO like your idea of a weight, though. The nagging question is: Do I want my bow pulled down at some serious angle while huge waves are crashing over it?

Oh, and Steady, thanks for all the good info and the links!!

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by cyan

If the waves were 10 meters, your chute would need to be safely below the lowest part of EVERY wave... submerged by >10 meters. If not, BOING- there goes your boat backwards. (and the chute in the air) Another failure mode cited by the USCG is the line snapping.

My storm anchor has floats at the top and some weights at the bottom. It's a mighty big chute and won't get airborne. 100m of polyprop line connects it to the bow bollard via the port side bow roller. The line is also weighted at 1/3 and 2/3, keeping it submerged and reduces shock loads.


What I didn't anticipate the first time I deployed it was the issue of that line pushing the anchor off the starboard roller and subsequently the CQR was banging against the hull. Those marks can still be seen today.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

IIRC, Ace sailmakers do sell complete JSDs as well as kits.



Jim

And OceanBrake in the UK, with a reportedly better product. We recently received just the cones from them as we are constructing our own tapered Dyneema rode for it. Soon the winter chore of threading the cone tapes into the rode while Netflix binging and 6 tapes per cone times 156 cones begins.

The number of cones and strength and length of the rode and bridles are specific to your boat type and size. Attachment to your boat is another issue that you may want an engineer to help you with.