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Old 25-05-2023, 10:53   #91
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

I tend to think that Homo sapiens needs to kick up his sapience a notch. I have no doubt that individuals in the Orcinus orca species, like those in the Canis genus in all its variety, are sentient beings having both imagination and memory.

That O. orca and H. sapiens don't have a common language does not negate my opinion. If you make any mammal feel threatened, he will consider what he should do to protect himself, and he will remember that consideration for future reference.

It would not surprise me in the least if an orca, remembering a past threat such as an "Evinrude rash" suffered by himself or by a pod-mate, took the initiative to eliminate a perceived threat betimes!

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Old 25-05-2023, 12:22   #92
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryban View Post
https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/topic...protection-act

I'm pretty sure you're only going to piss them off, unless you're prepared/able to kill the whole pod. I also think you'll need to be prepared to defend your actions and demonstrate that these animals were a real threat to your life.
You are not aware that this isn’t in the USA? It is in Spanish and Portuguese waters, where US laws are not in force.

Also, the right to self defense is a universal right. This means you always have the right, anywhere in the world, or at least in every country that are UN members.
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Old 25-05-2023, 12:56   #93
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

They are protected in Spanish waters and I think in Portuguese waters as well, you can prove to the authorities that your life was in danger, and not your rudder, otherwise they may come down on you.

The only thing you can achieve by shooting them is to piss them off or traumatize them even more, if they are, it has more effect to carry TNT in the boat.

It would be smarter not to transit the area and wait for the scientists to find a solution to disperse them in case of an encounter. Shooting at killer whales is like shooting flies with a cannon.
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Old 25-05-2023, 14:13   #94
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

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It would be smarter not to transit the area and wait for the scientists to find a solution to disperse them in case of an encounter.
The attacks have been continuing for a few years so I doubt we will see a solution in the foreseeable future.

For boats crossing the Bay of Biscay it is possible to avoid the orca areas by sailing say to Madeira in one leg, but this is more difficult and risky as the area is prone to severe conditions. For boats trying to enter or leave the Mediterranean Sea the only way of avoiding the orca areas is to use the Red Sea and Suez canal, which has its own risks. For local cruising boats in Spain and Portugal avoiding orca areas is impossible.

That is not to say nothing can be done to minimise the risk and consequences of attack. Boats have been adopting tactics such as sailing in convoy and staying inside the 20m contour, but sadly attacks are still happening.
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Old 25-05-2023, 14:50   #95
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

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They are protected in Spanish waters and I think in Portuguese waters as well, you can prove to the authorities that your life was in danger, and not your rudder, otherwise they may come down on you.

The only thing you can achieve by shooting them is to piss them off or traumatize them even more, if they are, it has more effect to carry TNT in the boat.

It would be smarter not to transit the area and wait for the scientists to find a solution to disperse them in case of an encounter. Shooting at killer whales is like shooting flies with a cannon.
All these claims about not being able to shoot them are baseless. Historically, fishermen have been shooting them on sight because they came for their catch. A simple Google search shows that. There’s nothing bulletproof about them.
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Old 25-05-2023, 19:04   #96
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

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...
Also, the right to self defense is a universal right. This means you always have the right, anywhere in the world, or at least in every country that are UN members.
One must remember that in many places the right to self defense does not extend to property and only allows for a proportionate force relative to the immediate threat if escape isn't possible.
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Old 25-05-2023, 22:08   #97
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

The problem is that if you leave them alive, someone may get hurt, but at least you can study them, and if you kill them you lose that ability (they'll sink out of sight). And, if the cause is something to do with the mammalian remembrance of injury and attacking the source, killing them will not be the optimum message to send. Whales "song" travels far through the water.

Tough problem, and a hasty decision about what to do has the possibility of a host of unknown sequelae.

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Old 25-05-2023, 23:45   #98
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

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One must remember that in many places the right to self defense does not extend to property and only allows for a proportionate force relative to the immediate threat if escape isn't possible.
That is correct, defensive response must be proportional. Example: when orcas start bumping your boat and maybe rudder, you can try a warning shot (which probably works) but as you are not in danger, you may not kill it, nor should any sane person want to.

But as soon as the bumping the boat becomes trying to rip it apart, you are in danger of your life (remember, even the perception of being in such danger is enough) then you have -justification- to use lethal force in self defense.

Also, this universal right to self defense overrules other laws:
Quote:
Justification does not make a criminal use of force lawful; if the use of force is justified, it cannot be criminal at all.
Every sane person would try to defend themselves.
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Old 26-05-2023, 11:53   #99
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
That is correct, defensive response must be proportional. Example: when orcas start bumping your boat and maybe rudder, you can try a warning shot (which probably works) but as you are not in danger, you may not kill it, nor should any sane person want to.



But as soon as the bumping the boat becomes trying to rip it apart, you are in danger of your life (remember, even the perception of being in such danger is enough) then you have -justification- to use lethal force in self defense.



Also, this universal right to self defense overrules other laws:



Every sane person would try to defend themselves.


Maybe every current orca interaction is currently doing that?
They don’t have shotguns but the can disable boats that look like the one that started this
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Old 26-05-2023, 12:22   #100
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

There is a strong suggestion that professional fishing boats, which compete for the same tuna the orca feed on are employing far more "stringent" steps to deter the animals from attacking.

These steps are not only working, but deterring future attacks on this type of boat from these intelligent animals that learn from their mistakes. But it is hard to seperate these rumours from reality.
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Old 26-05-2023, 12:33   #101
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

Why does this thread keep discussing orcas in the Atlantic when its title (incorrect as it is) is about orcas here in the eastern Pacific?
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Old 26-05-2023, 13:19   #102
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

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Why does this thread keep discussing orcas in the Atlantic when its title (incorrect as it is) is about orcas here in the eastern Pacific?
Because there is concern that the behaviour in the eastern Atlantic could spread to other geographic areas.There is no definitive cause for the change in orca behaviour so some speculation is understandable.

The thread suggests that the spread to other areas may already be occurring. I don’t think is accurate, there is no attack on the boat in the video, but the lessons learnt from sailboat damage in the Atlantic will be useful if this does occur in the future.

Orcas playing around the boat is exhilarating to witness, but if they start ramming and biting on the rudder thereby disabling or even sinking our sailboats the emotions are different.
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Old 26-05-2023, 13:30   #103
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

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One must remember that in many places the right to self defense does not extend to property and only allows for a proportionate force relative to the immediate threat if escape isn't possible.
Indeed -- I knew at least a handful of cruisers in my travels that carried guns aboard (at least the ones that admitted they did). I understand why -- people do board boats, bad things do happen on occasion. Being defenseless in those scenarios would not be fun.

However, if you do shoot and kill someone that boards your vessel, in a country where it's illegal to own firearms, you're probably still going to have to answer to a court -- most likely a better outcome than the alternative, but still worth considering.

On this topic, if you start shooting at an orca playing with your rudder in the territorial waters of a country that does not allow firearms, especially on a visiting yacht, you better be sure that the alternative is the sinking of your vessel.
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Old 26-05-2023, 13:36   #104
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

I just read an interesting report on gCaptain . Re attacks in Straits of Gibraltar
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Old 26-05-2023, 13:57   #105
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Re: Killer whales off the Pacific Attacking Boats Too!

Quote:
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Why does this thread keep discussing orcas in the Atlantic when its title (incorrect as it is) is about orcas here in the eastern Pacific?
Because look at the first post in the thread ?

Orcas pursuing a boat off California. But a fast boat so it is doing better than a sailboat
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