Invisible Force Sinks Sub

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by besty1950

Such waves do exist, and when studying for a for a DP (Differential Positioning) Certificate candidates are made aware of their existing???.

Yes, the Dynamic positioning candidates do get some info about these waves, often discussed and almost never encountered. This same discussion is happening on a professional mariners forum and so far, none of the ships masters has mentioned actually encountering one......but they do exist and it’s been suggested that reefs and shoals marked on old charts but actually in very deep water might actually have been these underwater waves striking the sailing ships and causing the captains to think they had taken the ground, then marked the chart accordingly.

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by gold

Internal waves really are a thing, here's a readable article on them from WHOI.https://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/feature...hin-the-waves/

Scanned through the article, one thing I found interesting? The mention of 'freshwater' (or water of lower salinity) in these waves. I can remember one of the 'lifers' on my first sub mentioning hitting fresh water 'pockets'... in the South China Sea. As fresh water is less dense than sea water, the sub would begin to unexpectedly sink, and he said that depth excursions of more than 100' were not unusual. Not a good thing if you are already at, or close to test depth.

A couple other observations from this thread:

SUBSAFE did indeed come about after the Thresher disaster, and it was implemented across the whole submarine fleet. Even boats built before the Thresher were updated to SUBSAFE standards. SUBSAFE is also a US Navy standard and not something that would apply to other countries.

In my brief time serving aboard subs (3 out of a 4 year enlistment; 5 deterrent and one SSN patrol) and in the nearly 50 years since, I have never heard a true sub-sailor refer to his sub(s) as 'ships'. They're 'boats'. The only exception to this is the adage:

There are only two kinds of ships in the Navy
Submarines... and targets!

MM2(SS) A-gang

[john manning]

It appears there are still sea monsters that can rise up from deep ocean to consume vessels.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

Scanned through the article, one thing I found interesting? The mention of 'freshwater' (or water of lower salinity) in these waves. I can remember one of the 'lifers' on my first sub mentioning hitting fresh water 'pockets'... in the South China Sea. As fresh water is less dense than sea water, the sub would begin to unexpectedly sink, and he said that depth excursions of more than 100' were not unusual. Not a good thing if you are already at, or close to test depth.

A couple other observations from this thread:

SUBSAFE did indeed come about after the Thresher disaster, and it was implemented across the whole submarine fleet. Even boats built before the Thresher were updated to SUBSAFE standards. SUBSAFE is also a US Navy standard and not something that would apply to other countries.

In my brief time serving aboard subs (3 out of a 4 year enlistment; 5 deterrent and one SSN patrol) and in the nearly 50 years since, I have never heard a true sub-sailor refer to his sub(s) as 'ships'. They're 'boats'. The only exception to this is the adage:

There are only two kinds of ships in the Navy
Submarines... and targets!

MM2(SS) A-gang

No squid would. Top enlisted man is Chief of the boat. I would have to give credit to those that can tolerate those cramped conditions. Even with the boomers today. I couldn't even imagine serving on a diesel boat.

[HansChristian33]

Enough with the blaming the Indonesian government and Navy. Nobody on here has any idea what the cause was and it could have been any of a thousand issues just about every country with a navy that operates submarines has lost one, it’s a hell of an unforgiving environment and yes I’ve worked, lived and sailed in Indonesia. Unless you have any real proof of what caused the accident maybe you need to keep your guesses to yourself, a lot of gallant men perished who where patriots of their country, a little respect would be nice.

[petermck]

Originally Posted by besty1950

Such waves do exist, and when studying for a for a DP (Differential Positioning) Certificate candidates are made aware of their existing???.

Totally agree and have experienced stratified vertical and horizontal flows while operating ROVs in deep water near continental shelves, read up on "solitons".

Also read up on the Indonesia Throughflow (ITF) which moves warm, relative freshwater from the north Pacific to the Indian Ocean.

Then look at a chart to see where the event occurred, North of Bali and close to the south of Kangean Islands.

There is a huge volume of water coming from the deep north pacific basin and over a shelf north of Kangean islands before descending into the Bali sea.
There is also spring tides twice a month which increase the flow velocity.

And yes, they are sometimes visible on the surface.
Statoil used wave radar on the Navion Munion FPSO when producing from the Lufeng field in the South China Sea to warn of a soliton.

[Shaneesprit]

I didn’t see any mention on here of why there were so many people on board or is that inside?
Anyway, they were mostly trainees, so whatever happened it’s likely the crowded space or the over confidence caught them out.
Horrible situation to be in.

[captainjim47]

"invisible wave" = magic wave?

"foxnews" quoted as "news"... that's the magic!!!

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by captainjim47

"invisible wave" = magic wave?

"foxnews" quoted as "news"... that's the magic!!!

Thanks Jim. Got it on your first two posts to the thread. Anything constructive to offer?

[captainjim47]

the word "wave" by itself in the reference is meaningless. considering the source one would have to assume they are referring to "cosmic" waves.

[captainjim47]

EM radiation easily 'seen' by the most fundamental circuits... a wire, a coil, a crystal & a cap... from when I was a child of 8.

[laird]

Originally Posted by PatB

Almost certainly true, but a Google of Malta WW2 will show that there are documented exceptions to the general equipment superiority = easy victory rule.

And, yes, I am aware that legend has somewhat embellished the truth of the Siege of Malta, but gthe early defence of the island with obsolete aircraft was still a fairly impressive achievement.

Nothing to do with the submarine ,but I feel compelled to mention that my dad was at the Siege of Malta , I have his medal and photograph from that experience

[captainjim47]

No fair piling on the B.S. to this thread, that is all that is here... I spent 2 years training new sub commanders near this area as well, nada!

Funny how any B.S. that promotes fear and loathing gets thru the "fact" checkers at Fox... but funnier still, the minions that suck it up.

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Would love to see something credible on the Maui/Big Island thing. Never heard of it in the 3 years I spent there dedicated to rescuing people from sinking ships, if it was a thing you'd think we would have at least had an inkling of it in the Coast Guard?

[JohnT]

I think the term “underwater waves” is most probably a bit of a twist on a phenomena that does exist, but termed as such for the layman by the media. There is a well known phenomena (actually two) called “upwelling” and “downwelling” - look them up on Google! I have experienced this on the south west coast of Africa and a number of times on the northern coast of South America about 50 nautical miles off the coast of Surinam. On a small surface vessel it can be quite frightening if you do not know what it is - I would not know the effects it would have on an underwater vessel, such as a submarine.

[chasmains]

Capt. Jim, I originally posted the discussion about the channel between Maui and the Big Island. A simple google search turned up this link: Survival Stories - Sailing Alenuihaha Channel
This link discusses it but is not scientific basis. I heard about the Alenuihaha Channel from some folks we met on a visit to the Big Island. I heard them say that the channel has some type of vertically rotating phenomenon. It could be a tale. I'm sure there is more information. It would not be surprising since we hear of air blasts up and down mountainsides pushing planes around. Deep water and strong currents rushing up because of a sudden and drastic change in depth seems entirely possible.