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Old 30-04-2021, 11:43   #16
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

"Internal solitary Wave"
Well, at least it was in the sub not outside!

Regardless, Condolences to families ...
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Old 30-04-2021, 11:46   #17
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

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An old diesel boat in all likely hood, it may have gone down as the result of age? I doubt a government will admit to that?
The boat was launched in 1980 and has server refits over time; 1989, and a two year refit in South Korea. At that time much of its upper sturcture (sail?) was replaced. It also recieved new/upgrades to its propulsion systems, sonar, radar, combat control, and other systems.

You are correct that it was a diesel electric sub.

Warships, including submarines, can last many decades assuming proper care is provided, and that any refits are done without defects.

It should be noted that in addition to the replacement of the upper structure, its maximum diving depth and top speed were both increased. According to wikipedia, it's max diving depth was increased to 843 feet (257 meters), HOWEVER some articles were quoting someone from the Indonesian navy as saying the maximum depth was 500 meters.

I wonder if this discrepancy was a factor/cause in its loss.
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Old 30-04-2021, 12:31   #18
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

I can’t see that operational depth could be effectively doubled to 500 meters. Our own nuclear boats, fast attacks and SSBNs, were originally built for significantly less than that (still classified). But then USS Thresher sank in 1963 and boats with similar sea water systems were immediately limited to quite a bit less than 1/2 of 500 meters. New construction boats got SUBSAFE sea water equipment and were back to their original design operational depth. Pre-SUBSAFE boats had to continue to operate at the shallower depth. (LA and Ohio class boats are not part of this limitation.) So the Indonesian boat could have gotten SUBSAFE type equipment but I really doubt doubling depth. The hull becomes the limiting equipment. Our thumb rule for pressure vs. depth is 44 psi per 100 feet depth change. That’s 722 psi external pressure at 500m - pretty steep.
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Old 30-04-2021, 12:50   #19
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

I'm often on here asking questions about sailboats, because many people know more about them than I. I don't ask questions about subs because I spent 35 years in the US Navy Submarine Force, serving on four ships, commanding one of them, and riding dozens more in the course of sea trials, workups, and examinations of their systems and crew. In those 35 years, I've never encountered an external force capable of sinking a sub without the help of neglect or human error. And in the course of investigating many Class A Mishaps, there is always a lengthy trail of obvious indicators and missed chances to prevent a tragedy. In the case of a submarine, it can be as simple as locking onto a single faulty depth indicator and following it down past crush depth. There's this thing that happens in the depths....where the deeper you go, the more the hull compresses, the more your relative density rises, the heavier you become, the faster you sink. And emergency main ballast blow systems are less effective because the expansion of compressed air in the main ballast tanks is fighting a higher backpressure. Same with the dewatering pumps. A submarine operating near it's max depth can be crippled by a leak as small as 1". The water comes in so fast and the resulting pressure rise is so rapid that it can kill the crew before they even get wet. Finally, the most dangerous condition is flooding in the engineroom. Without full propulsion capability, a sub experiencing flooding at max depth will not survive simply by emergency blowing its main ballast tanks. Also, flooding in the engineroom can lead to a loss of vertical stability, causing the ship to go vertical, burping the emergency blow air out of the open grates on the bottom of the main ballast tanks, and sending it to the bottom. So it's a precarious business in the first place, requiring only the smallest of human error and negligence to combine in a tragic outcome. And all that far more likely than a weird wave.
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Old 30-04-2021, 13:36   #20
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

Sir I agree with you that one little mistake can kill the crew. A sub (SSBN) I was on in the North Atlantic fell 300 feet as we were going to periscope depth because of an Ensign's mistake of pushing the emergence shutdown on the diesel with the reactor in a parcel SRAM. Loss of power, the COB pulled the chicken switches for emergency blow. We road the express elavator to the top!! Another 100 feet of depth there may not have been enough air to go to the top. I was a MM2SS at that time, around 1973-74. If it had went the other way no one would have known just what put the sub on the Botton.
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Old 30-04-2021, 13:42   #21
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
Indonesian officials working to determine how a military submarine with 53 crewmembers sunk earlier this month during a training exercise said the vessel may have been hit by an internal solitary wave in the treacherous waters off Bali.

Australia’s ABC.net.au reported that such waves are invisible but have the strength to drag a submarine down to dangerous depths. The report said that there have been several theories, but evidence seems to point to the wave that would not be evident on the surface of the water.

The report said Indonesian naval officials consulted satellite images from the region and determined that these massive waves were in the area at the time of the sinking.

Rear Adm. Iwan Isnurwanto, the commander of the Indonesian Navy Command and Staff School, told the station that the wave may have "moved up from the bottom to the north, and there’s a trench between two mountains."

"There was nothing that they could do, no time to do anything... if the sub was brought down by such a wave. It likely angled [downward], causing all the crew members to roll down," Isnurwanto said, according to Nikkei Asia. "We have to do further investigation, but that is most likely what happened."

From https://www.foxnews.com/world/doomed...er-wave-report
Well, until there is an examination by a ROV of the wreck we will just have to accept whatever unlikely tale makes the owners happy until better information comes to hand.
If examination by an ROV is ever permitted of course. This vessel and its unfortunate crew and their families did not suffer as an event occurring in international waters.

I would like to see some seismic date to determine if a discernible internal explosion occurred--vessels do not usually implode into three separate portions. The vessel is usually lying in one piece with crush damage. .

But we will just have to wait and see if further investigation is permitted or forthcoming.
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Old 30-04-2021, 13:45   #22
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

I doubt that sub could even be compared to an SSB or an SSBN. That would totally be apples and oranges.
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Old 30-04-2021, 14:04   #23
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

Thank you Chasmains and Polar Opposite for your insights. They provide some interesting food for thought. In particular, I wholeheartedly agree with the comment about human error and/or neglect. I have seen this far too often in the Army, flying, and sailing.

There are three other interesting notes about this sub. The first refit (1989) was done by the manufacturer in West Germany whereas the second refit 2012 was done in South Korea. One of their national legislators, a retired general, stated that after the second refit, the sub failed a torpedo drill when one misfired and killed three crewmen. According to the Chief of Staff of the Indonesian Navy, the sub had fired a live and a practice torpedo at the time of her disappearance. It may not be related but it is an interesting coincidence.

It will be interesting to see if there is a final report and see what it says.
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Old 30-04-2021, 14:21   #24
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

How does a satellite photo show an underwater wave that is invisible on the surface? Hmmmmm???
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Old 30-04-2021, 14:27   #25
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

At any rate, the sinking still makes me sad for the crew and their families. I always consider other submariners as brothers, no matter their flags. We are each doing our country’s calling. The politicians become the enemies we really fight. I put my flag at half mast when I first heard the news and can only wish the families and friends well going forward.
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Old 30-04-2021, 14:52   #26
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

Underwater waves surging downwards visible from satellite?

My bullshyte detector was beeping and flashing madly too!!
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Old 30-04-2021, 15:28   #27
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

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Originally Posted by chasmains View Post
Heard that a strange water condition between Maui and Hawai’i exists. Apparently ships have bee lost there because of a vertical water swirl or something similar exists there. Why not a similar phenom in Indonesia?
I heard there was this roughly triangular area between Florida, Puerto Rico, and Bermuda....

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Old 30-04-2021, 16:10   #28
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

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Heard that a strange water condition between Maui and Hawai’i exists. Apparently ships have bee lost there because of a vertical water swirl or something similar exists there. Why not a similar phenom in Indonesia?
Every country wants a submarine in their navy. Bragging rights. Besides that, a 40 year old boat is only a target for China.
Would love to see something credible on the Maui/Big Island thing. Never heard of it in the 3 years I spent there dedicated to rescuing people from sinking ships, if it was a thing you'd think we would have at least had an inkling of it in the Coast Guard?
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Old 30-04-2021, 16:15   #29
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

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Originally Posted by Polar Opposite View Post
I'm often on here asking questions about sailboats, because many people know more about them than I. I don't ask questions about subs because I spent 35 years in the US Navy Submarine Force, serving on four ships, commanding one of them, and riding dozens more in the course of sea trials, workups, and examinations of their systems and crew. In those 35 years, I've never encountered an external force capable of sinking a sub without the help of neglect or human error. And in the course of investigating many Class A Mishaps, there is always a lengthy trail of obvious indicators and missed chances to prevent a tragedy. In the case of a submarine, it can be as simple as locking onto a single faulty depth indicator and following it down past crush depth. There's this thing that happens in the depths....where the deeper you go, the more the hull compresses, the more your relative density rises, the heavier you become, the faster you sink. And emergency main ballast blow systems are less effective because the expansion of compressed air in the main ballast tanks is fighting a higher backpressure. Same with the dewatering pumps. A submarine operating near it's max depth can be crippled by a leak as small as 1". The water comes in so fast and the resulting pressure rise is so rapid that it can kill the crew before they even get wet. Finally, the most dangerous condition is flooding in the engineroom. Without full propulsion capability, a sub experiencing flooding at max depth will not survive simply by emergency blowing its main ballast tanks. Also, flooding in the engineroom can lead to a loss of vertical stability, causing the ship to go vertical, burping the emergency blow air out of the open grates on the bottom of the main ballast tanks, and sending it to the bottom. So it's a precarious business in the first place, requiring only the smallest of human error and negligence to combine in a tragic outcome. And all that far more likely than a weird wave.
Just out of curiosity, was there really only one indicator of depth? Seems like madness, as a pilot we generally have at least one backup of the crucial instruments and I know the sub guys and aviators in the Navy have a similar culture around safety.
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Old 30-04-2021, 16:17   #30
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Re: Invisible Force Sinks Sub

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Indonesia needs a navy, especially submarines, as China is on a territorial annexation spree.

He who controls the outlet of the Malacca Straits, controls China’s imports and exports.

The British didn’t build their flawed fortress/major naval base at Singapore for no reason. Same as Gibraltar - and former British control over Suez.
I fail to see how an outdated fleet of worn out submarines is going to influence that scenario, surely they would be no match for what China would have.
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