 |
|
23-08-2024, 02:09
|
#196
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Vessel FR, me UK
Boat: EuroShipServices Luxemotor 22m
Posts: 125
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
The bigger the ship, weather avoidance tends to be at sea. Steam gently into sea with weather on a bow, say 20 degrees, to minimise worst of the pitching. Of course a huge and fast vertical downdraft probably can't be countered that easily. These SYs are not renowned for securing for sea and run aircon with portholes etc open.
But with the plethora of weather apps and info, I'm surprised. It will be interesting to hear what the Captain has to say and the other 2 or 3 seaman officers.
And I wonder how the relationship between UK MAIB and IT Prosecutors is going.
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 02:11
|
#197
|
Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 51,796
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Time O25
.. - how come none of the fishing boats were out that night? Perhaps Bayesian's captain was not running as tight of a ship as was required under the circumstances. Who knows.
But the fact is, unless it was an outside bad act, this sinking was totally preventable in those circumstances. As was Titanic's in its time. By preventable I mean not after knockdown but that the ship shouldn't have been put in that situation in the first place. Should've followed the fishermen's approach to weather that night - stayed in port.
|
The “Bayesian” sank about half a mile off the Sicilian coast, near Porticello [Porticello S. Flavia], which is a fishing port.
➥ https://marinas.com/view/marina/g9cd...o_Sicily_Italy
I believe that the nearest marinas, that could accommodate ‘Bayesian’, would be in Palermo, about 20 miles away.
Porticello S. Flavia ➘
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 02:47
|
#198
|
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,936
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate
^^^^
200 tonne lifting keel on a vessel with a displacement of ~450 tonne? That does not seem credible to me.
And for those expressing disbelief that the keel was not always down when out of harbor... did you not read the several posts from folks with experience in similar vessels saying that the keel, when down, made loud and annoying noises? I could easily believe that the owner requested that it be raised at anchor so as to not disturb his guests (and the lord of the land)? And without personal experience, I suspect that lowering the keel isn't a simple or rapid evolution, something to be done quickly as the wx deteriorated. Still a serious error for the skip, but understandable: it's always difficult to say no to the the boss, even when he is wrong!
The inquiry will be most interesting, a sad ending to this unfortunate event.
Jim
|
Yeah, it was a bit of a stretch for me too, hard to imagine an almost 50% ballast ratio but that’s what the yacht designer speculated on in the video. The size of the hydraulic rams needed to raise and lower a plate that heavy ( and long) must be immense if 200 tonnes is an accurate estimate. I worked on a Swan 80’ with a 12 tonne lifting keel in a carbon fibre plate case and even for that relatively light keel the hydraulic rams were quite large.
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 03:09
|
#199
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 4,688
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
Few thoughts regarding as to what the Perini Navi boss stated.
The crew may have been expecting a thunderstorm but likely underestimated it's severity and surely did not expect a full knock down. After all it's a huge vessel.
I agree, the possibly raised keel would have been a big problem, but there may have been reasons for that too.
To mind come a mechanical failure or some maintenance preventing it's lowering?
Noises which a lowered keel might make and disturbe sleeping guests might be another one and has been mentioned before.
In a normal thunderstorm it would perhaps not have been an issue, no sails were up.
Regarding open doors. I think it's a plausible reaction for the crew (likely after command by the captain) to scramble for any loose items on deck and bring it into the salon. So in a result some doors might have been open in the process and when the knock down happened.
They would have not seen the waterspout at night (unless lightning lit it up and someone did see it, but what do you do then anyway?) and were busy with other things like a dragging anchor.
Regarding the garage door or shell doors, were there perhaps tenders still out there and orders were given to retrieve them when the storm started?
Having the tender out when under thunderstorm warning would have been a mistake, but trying to retrieve it would be a normal reaction. Remember, no-one expected a full knock down.
In the possible process of retrieving a tender and/or toys, I can see a shell door being open or in the process of being closed when the knock down occurred. I can also see a bulkhead door on the lower deck being open in the process.
So, yes some crew activities let perhaps to the tragedy, but, some of these actions seem rather plausible to me.
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 03:54
|
#200
|
Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 51,796
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
The cruise ship “Royal Clipper” is a steel-hulled, five-masted, fully rigged, tall ship. She is listed by Guinness World Records as the largest square-rigged ship, currently in service.
For comparison:
“Royal Clipper” ~ “Bayesian” Yacht
Length: 439 feet ~ 183' 3"
Beam: 52 feet ~ 37' 9"
Draft: 19.6 feet ~ 32' 3"
Gross tonnage: 4,425 GT ~ 473 GT
Masts: 5 ~ 1
Mast height: 177 feet ~ 246'
Sail area: 54,000 square feet ~ 31,205 sq. ft.
Number of sails: 42 ~ 2?
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 05:02
|
#201
|
Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Croatia
Boat: neptunus 56 fly
Posts: 1,455
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
Costantino strongly defended the structural integrity and craftsmanship of the 56-meter Bayesian. He argued that the sinking was not due to any structural failure but was the result of human error, particularly pointing to the actions of the crew and, most notably, the New Zealand captain, James Cutfield. Costantino expressed his belief that there was inadequate management of the emergency situation.
Costantino emphasized that the storm had been forecasted, and as such, the captain should have taken all necessary preventive measures, such as sealing the hull and deck, closing all doors and hatches, and following the emergency procedures to protect the guests on board. According to Costantino, these actions were not taken, and he pointed out that initiating the engines, raising the anchor, and positioning the bow into the wind could have averted the disaster.
weather conditions were not particularly extreme, pointing out that the captain of a nearby vessel, the Sir Robert, managed the situation without any issues. He suggested that proper management could have led to a different outcome.
https://pressmare.it/en/media/press-...t-yachts-79132
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 05:16
|
#202
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 4,688
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
Quote:
Originally Posted by more
Costantino strongly defended the structural integrity and craftsmanship of the 56-meter Bayesian. He argued that the sinking was not due to any structural failure but was the result of human error, particularly pointing to the actions of the crew and, most notably, the New Zealand captain, James Cutfield. Costantino expressed his belief that there was inadequate management of the emergency situation.
Costantino emphasized that the storm had been forecasted, and as such, the captain should have taken all necessary preventive measures, such as sealing the hull and deck, closing all doors and hatches, and following the emergency procedures to protect the guests on board. According to Costantino, these actions were not taken, and he pointed out that initiating the engines, raising the anchor, and positioning the bow into the wind could have averted the disaster.
weather conditions were not particularly extreme, pointing out that the captain of a nearby vessel, the Sir Robert, managed the situation without any issues. He suggested that proper management could have led to a different outcome.
https://pressmare.it/en/media/press-...t-yachts-79132
|
Constantino has his own agenda, deflecting any harm from his company. That's totally fine.
Still, he was not on-board and as such has an easy job to criticise the crew.
If one puts oneself into the shoes of the crew, some of their likely decisions (taken under alarm, at night and immense pressure) become comprehendable.
See my previous post.
Noone really expects such a knock down to happen.
I know it happened in Auckland, but it's nothing you would normally anticipate. Especially at anchor where you would expect the vessel to swing into the wind.
Still, if the keel was not down while fully functional it's not really excusable in hindsight. I'd guess that will likely not happen anymore after such a tragedy.
Regarding the nearby sailing ship Sir Robert Baden Powell (very cool classic ship!) they were probably better prepared and had also a good portion of luck. A waterspouts funnel can move very erratic, so, it could have hit them as well, but, thankfully it didn't.
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 06:17
|
#203
|
Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 7,160
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
For sure, the Insurance company will leave no stone unturned into their investigation of this tragedy to avoid paying any claims.
Until such time, it's all pretty much speculation imo.
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 06:35
|
#204
|
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: New York City
Boat: none yet :(
Posts: 147
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
Quote:
Originally Posted by more
Costantino strongly defended the structural integrity and craftsmanship of the 56-meter Bayesian. He argued that the sinking was not due to any structural failure but was the result of human error, particularly pointing to the actions of the crew and, most notably, the New Zealand captain, James Cutfield. Costantino expressed his belief that there was inadequate management of the emergency situation.
|
I would not dispute the yacht integrity, at the end, it was crossing oceans for 15+ years (built in 2008). What I heard is that the taller mast was installed subsequently (not sure if that's correct) and if true, whether that may have distorted design stability etc.
Some of you may remember that Oyster yacht which broke in half and sank near coast of France or Spain some years ago whose owner wanted it extended by few meters from its original design.
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 07:05
|
#205
|
Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Croatia
Boat: neptunus 56 fly
Posts: 1,455
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska
Constantino has his own agenda, deflecting any harm from his company. That's totally fine.
Still, he was not on-board and as such has an easy job to criticise the crew.
If one puts oneself into the shoes of the crew, some of their likely decisions (taken under alarm, at night and immense pressure) become comprehendable.
See my previous post.
Noone really expects such a knock down to happen.
I know it happened in Auckland, but it's nothing you would normally anticipate. Especially at anchor where you would expect the vessel to swing into the wind.
Still, if the keel was not down while fully functional it's not really excusable in hindsight. I'd guess that will likely not happen anymore after such a tragedy.
Regarding the nearby sailing ship Sir Robert Baden Powell (very cool classic ship!) they were probably better prepared and had also a good portion of luck. A waterspouts funnel can move very erratic, so, it could have hit them as well, but, thankfully it didn't.
|
i dont know wher you go in school,but iam not resposibile,forum meber not resposibile,guest not resposibile .who is resposibile , young green captaine off course.this boat under register have minimum number crew in watch.
yestrday i decline 1200€ income
Customer: We are a family of 8 plus one 5 month old. I want to make sure the sailboat will work for a baby.
We are looking at going out tomorrow .
my answer
hi Tom,tomorow is hot i dont alow 5 month old baby.
1200€+ fee is nice money. but if baby something hapen this is my guilty 80-100%. depend judge
The responsibility of the captain of the ship at the anchorage includes several key aspects:
Crew and cargo safety: The captain is responsible for the safety of all crew members as well as the cargo being carried. This includes preventing accidents and dealing with emergencies.
Navigation and anchoring: The captain must ensure that the vessel is properly anchored in a safe area, taking into account the depth of water, the number and type of anchors, as well as weather and current conditions.
Equipment Maintenance: The captain is responsible for regularly checking the equipment related to the anchor and other operations on board to ensure their functionality.
Communication and coordination: The master should maintain communication with coastal authorities, other ships and crew members for proper coordination of anchorage operations.
Enforcement of rules and regulations: The master is responsible for compliance with maritime laws and regulations relating to anchorage and port operations.
Training and supervision of the crew: The master should be involved in the training and supervision of the crew, to ensure the ability to perform tasks related to anchorage and safety.
In short, the captain of the ship at anchor plays a key role in maintaining the safety and efficiency of all ship operations.
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 07:07
|
#206
|
Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Croatia
Boat: neptunus 56 fly
Posts: 1,455
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
An excuse does not usually absolve the ship's captain from liability. In maritime law, the captain of a ship has great responsibility for the safety of the ship, crew, cargo and operations. Here are some key points on this topic:
1. **Professional responsibility**: The captain is considered an expert and a leader on board, and is expected to make correct decisions in accordance with the rules of the profession. Although unforeseen circumstances may arise, the captain is responsible for assessing the situation and making adequate decisions.
2. **Decisions in emergency situations**: If the captain acts in accordance with his knowledge and skills, and the result is still an accident, he could be partially or completely relieved of responsibility, depending on the circumstances and legal regulations.
3. **Cryptography and Roll Call**: Although the excuse may be taken into account during the investigation, the final assessment of liability depends on factors such as the conduct of the captain, adherence to procedures and regulations, and the specific circumstances of the event.
4. **Type of Excuse**: Excuses related to external circumstances, such as extreme weather conditions, may be taken into account, but the captain still bears the primary responsibility for the safety of the ship and crew.
In any case, the specific situation and the relevant laws play a key role in determining whether or not the captain can be exonerated.
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 07:41
|
#207
|
Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: www.trimaran-san.de
Boat: Neel 51, Trimaran
Posts: 482
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
A lot of speculation of why she sank so rapidly, but very little about why she got into a position to expose herself with such a large windage area towards the wind in the first place...
What I mean is what a few had pointed out before: According to AIS, she started dragging anchor, and this for perhaps as long as 16 minutes before she sank, or at least the electricity died. In this time, her bow turned lee-wards and the large windage area was created - probably within minutes of starting to drag.
But why did she drag in the first place? It is hard to tell from the AIS image shown in earlier posts, but the scale given there (0.1 nm) seems to indicate that the swinging circle at anchor was perhaps only 60 metres. The depth at the anchor was perhaps 20 to 25 metres according to the same chart (which I presume is in feet). Add the anchor depth, this translates to perhaps 65 metres of chain, which seems just not enough chain for this kind of weather.
I would also dare to say that they did not deploy any long, elastic snubber to reduce shock loads on the anchor due to gusts. They are a pain in the neck to deploy for this size of boats. I watched one some time ago trying to do it, poking and prodding with long sticks, and it took them quite some time. It would require a dinghy / tender, to deploy and retrieve it. So, I'd understand if none was deployed.
Had the anchor not dragged, the heeling would have been much less. So, to me, this is where the problem started.
Cheers,
Mathias
anchorchaincalculator.com
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 07:46
|
#208
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 4,688
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
Quote:
Originally Posted by more
An excuse does not usually absolve the ship's captain from liability. In maritime law, the captain of a ship has great responsibility for the safety of the ship, crew, cargo and operations. Here are some key points on this topic:
1. **Professional responsibility**: The captain is considered an expert and a leader on board, and is expected to make correct decisions in accordance with the rules of the profession. Although unforeseen circumstances may arise, the captain is responsible for assessing the situation and making adequate decisions.
2. **Decisions in emergency situations**: If the captain acts in accordance with his knowledge and skills, and the result is still an accident, he could be partially or completely relieved of responsibility, depending on the circumstances and legal regulations.
3. **Cryptography and Roll Call**: Although the excuse may be taken into account during the investigation, the final assessment of liability depends on factors such as the conduct of the captain, adherence to procedures and regulations, and the specific circumstances of the event.
4. **Type of Excuse**: Excuses related to external circumstances, such as extreme weather conditions, may be taken into account, but the captain still bears the primary responsibility for the safety of the ship and crew.
In any case, the specific situation and the relevant laws play a key role in determining whether or not the captain can be exonerated.
|
I did never say that they may not be responsible. I never said that should not lead to consequences if proven.
I merely expressed some understanding as to why they may have taken the decisions they have. Be they right or wrong in hindsight.
Noone is perfect and humans do make mistakes.
Some, like Captain Schettino of Costa Concordia do them because they are "cocky" and to some degree stupid.
Some because they happen to take a wrong decision under extreme pressure.
In the world I was brought up this would clearly deserve different legal outcomes from a moral standpoint.
Btw
It was not a "young green captain" it was a professional captain with several years experience on vessels such as this.
Btw. blaming the crew is always easy after a tragedy. Especially with the legal clout a huge shipyard has to their disposal.
The yard owner was not on site and it's obvious as to why he has to try to deflect any wrong doings of the shipyard, which may to some degree include the design team.
Let's see what the official accident investigation will find out. Good that several nations are involved in this.
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 07:49
|
#209
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 4,688
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathiasW
A lot of speculation of why she sank so rapidly, but very little about why she got into a position to expose herself with such a large windage area towards the wind in the first place...
What I mean is what a few had pointed out before: According to AIS, she started dragging anchor, and this for perhaps as long as 16 minutes before she sank, or at least the electricity died. In this time, her bow turned wind-wards and the large windage area was created - probably within minutes of starting to drag.
But why did she drag in the first place? It is hard to tell from the AIS image shown in earlier posts, but the scale given there (0.1 nm) seems to indicate that the swinging circle at anchor was perhaps only 60 metres. The depth at the anchor was perhaps 20 to 25 metres according to the same chart (which I presume is in feet). Add the anchor depth, this translates to perhaps 65 metres of chain, which seems just not enough chain for this kind of weather.
I would also dare to say that they did not deploy any long, elastic snubber to reduce shock loads on the anchor due to gusts. They are a pain in the neck to deploy for this size of boats. I watched one some time ago trying to do it, poking and prodding with long sticks, and it took them quite some time. It would require a dinghy / tender, to deploy and retrieve it. So, I'd understand if none was deployed.
Had the anchor not dragged, the heeling would have been much less. So, to me, this is where the problem started.
Cheers,
Mathias
anchorchaincalculator.com
|
In light weather you can swing in a tight circle, never actually moving the chain by more then a few meters.
Do we know if it was not quite calm until the storm rolled in?
|
|
|
23-08-2024, 07:52
|
#210
|
Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: www.trimaran-san.de
Boat: Neel 51, Trimaran
Posts: 482
|
Re: C&N managed yacht sinks off Sicily, 7 missing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska
In light weather you can swing in a tight circle, never actually moving the chain by more then a few meters.
Do we know if it was not quite calm until the storm rolled in?
|
True, but the track shown seems it was doing happily movements along a perfect arc and then suddenly broke off. In light winds, you tend not to have nice arcs but a track that wanders all over the available space, over time.
|
|
|
 |
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Rate This Thread |
Linear Mode
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Advertise Here
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Vendor Spotlight |
|
|