Boat fire 34+ missing

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Absolutely no escape hatches over the berths and a COI for 46 people?

That doesn't seem right to me. Coast Guard dropped the ball here or doesn't have good enough regulations regarding fire safety?

From the LA Times article mentioned above

The safety briefing, Rausch said, is done within the galley at the site of the escape hatch, a roughly two-feet by two-feet square plank of wood with no lock or latch on it. Below, the rows of bunks hold a maximum of 46 people, some in single or double beds stacked in threes.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Folks, you're missing a biggy. Investigation withstanding, it's not 02 on board or gasoline stored, but simply the horrible flamability of fiberglas resin.

We need to confront this. It takes only intnese heat in a small area, typical of a high amperage short circuit in our DC wiring, to ignite a fiberglass hull. The smoke produced is deadly in its own right. Few boats, even meeting USCG commercial requirements, have a way of fighting such a fire, and escape becomes the critical issue.

We've all seen the photographs of just about any boat fire, with huge quantities of black smoke and raging flames. That's the hull burning.

With small entrances/exits common to boats, it's a foot race to get out before the interior is filled with poisonous gas, and beyond a crew's capability to enter and fight it.

You are right about the flammability of fiberglass resin, but in a news briefing the CG captain said she was a wooden boat. Intense black smoke can also come from burning petroleum. I've seen a couple of airplane crashes in my life and there's an unbelievable amount of black smoke and not a drop of fiberglass to be found. Burning diesel could have easily made that much black smoke. Of course this early in any event there's usually a lot of misinformation floating around and the captain might have been misinformed about the construction.

[hpeer]

Or could have been glassed over wood?

But look at car fires, no fiberglass but lots of plastic and upholstery.

The idea of a propane explosion blowing off the cabin and crew makes a lot of sense. It could have stunned and disoriented the guests below while starting a fire. Spilled grease running downwards. The bunk rooms must be full of blankets and foam mattress’. Perfect hell.

[Captain Bill]

There's a news story on NBC that says there were two escape hatches and both were blocked by fire. They also interviewed the captain of the Grape Escape which rescued the crew and he said that the crew arrived at his boat in a dinghy and they were not pulled from the water. There were also pictures of the bunk areas from better days.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

You are right about the flammability of fiberglass resin, but in a news briefing the CG captain said she was a wooden boat. Intense black smoke can also come from burning petroleum. I've seen a couple of airplane crashes in my life and there's an unbelievable amount of black smoke and not a drop of fiberglass to be found. Burning diesel could have easily made that much black smoke. Of course this early in any event there's usually a lot of misinformation floating around and the captain might have been misinformed about the construction.

The entire interior of an aircraft is plastic that burns black and also emits toxic gasses.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

The entire interior of an aircraft is plastic that burns black and also emits toxic gasses.

Not the crashes I saw. They were military and back in the 60's. There was very little to no plastic in those aircraft.

[Checkswrecks]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

The entire interior of an aircraft is plastic that burns black and also emits toxic gasses.

As a now retired aviation accident investigator, I'll point out that the interior materials are required to not support flame and this includes the plastics. This requirement has existed for a very long time. The most flammable thing beyond the fuel and oil is the seat foam, and those are covered with non-flammable covers.

Bill was right, in that airplane accident fires are typically the fuel, because impact forces generally release it. At that point there are numerous potential ignition sources.

[Checkswrecks]

I used to dive on the sisterships Truth and Consequences back in the 70s and early 80s and once or twice on Conception when she was new. I was with Dana when we were all single and we had to get down in the grass on the bottom as a great white went by. While we haven't talked in probably 20+ years, she and her husband are the most conscientious people-oriented people and I can not imagine what they are going through!

The sleeping bunks/racks were down in the area which the photos show burned to near the waterline. The stairs would've gone up into the galley/cabin fire and people tend to go where they are familiar. While there were escape hatches, I can't imagine trying to find them in the confusion of people and screaming in the TIGHT space, in the dark, with choking smoke. Lack of power and lights would have happened been almost instantly because fire creates short circuits and trips breakers fast. (Also think about how high emergency lights on boats tend to be mounted.)

The boat was glass on wood, so it was as susceptible to fire as any glass boat. For an investigator the seat of a fire tends to be where the longest burn and most damage were. Not a rule, just an area we prioritize so it is striking that the stern area had relatively less burn damage than the galley/bunk areas in the initial video and photos. The diesels, generators, and other mechanicals were aft and the web-site says there was the required suppression system which should have helped but I have seen fire start in one area and become more intense if it finds a fuel or oxidizer.

NTSB is sending a full 16 person go team and all the rest of us are just guessing and outsiders. We need to wait for the NTSB and USCG to figure out what the likely fuel(s) and oxidizers were (nitrox? compressed air?) as well as fire progression and crew ops/involvement. I retired from having been on the go-teams for over 31 years and have faith in their abilities. It'll probably be 18 months to get a report but the NTSB will give partial info releases as soon as they feel info is factual and solid.

I'm in shock.

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Absolutely no escape hatches over the berths and a COI for 46 people?

That doesn't seem right to me. Coast Guard dropped the ball here or doesn't have good enough regulations regarding fire safety?

Unlikely escape hatches would have made much difference. With people asleap and a fire producing taxic fumes people can suffocate without ever waking. If the crew sleped in adeck house likely they simply had a bit more time and faster rections so got out.

[requiem]

From elsewhere on the Internets:

- There's consistent evidence of a second hatch for egress, located over the topmost aft bunks and exiting into the galley.
- Reports are that the boat used a Nuvair membrane system for nitrox rather than carrying oxygen.

A picture of such an over-bunk hatch was posted on this thread: https://www.scubaboard.com/community...584062/page-29 (I believe either the same vessel or a sister ship.)

This is horrifying.

Until the NTSB report comes out, my guess is the most likely cause was electrical, specifically relating to a large volume of lithium batteries for cameras, dive lights, etc. being charged. It's both a relatively-new technology and one where the risks are not yet widely appreciated.

A likely contributing factor seems to be inadequate egress points, particularly for the number of people. It may not have made a difference in this case, but replacing those bunks with a clearly marked ladder seems indicated.

[roverhi]

Supposedly only one access to sleeping quarters which was adjacent to the galley. A propane explosion may have made it impossible to exit the sleeping quarters. The crews quarters were reported to be on deck level and they all may have been up preparing for the Days diving. In any case, it's all speculation and there's not much left to figure what caused the fire other than crew testimony.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

As to what burned so hot so fast, it was a dive boat. Perhaps they had o2 onboard for making nitrox...

There is extensive discussion at ScubaBoard by people who have been on the vessel and are familiar with its operation.


They did not have oxygen onboard beyond the usual, minimal amount required for first aid. Nitrox is produced using a membrane. There is no reason the compressors and related equipment would be operating at 3 a.m. The galley on this boat was electric.


The informed speculation as to possible causes -- and it is indeed just speculation -- is that the fire may have originated in relatively small lithium batteries (for dive lights or other similar equipment), or in the vessel's APU or electrical system. The vessel operates an APU (generator) at night.

[ArmyDaveNY]

One report mentioned that per the crew, five of the six crew were sleeping on the deck and/or bridge. One of the crew was sleeping below and if believed to have died in the fire.

For those interested, here is the company's boat website:
https://www.truthaquatics.com/conception/

There is a specs page as well as a page that provides an interior layout. There is only one gangway shown. The captain mentioned that there was also an escape hatch above one of the bunks


Per the website, the gangway led up into the galley.

[Baba Buoy]

Regarding lithium batteries, I had been on dive trips where all available table space was taken up by cameras and strobes, scooters, flashlights, cell phones all being charged. I prefer trips more dedicated towards game hunting.

No safety briefing had ever mentioned escape hatches down in bunk room, so maybe people just didn't know about secondary egress. I bet this will be mentioned in future.

[Baba Buoy]

Fire alarms should have given passengers more of a chance to escape. An explosion would have negated this benefit I imagine.