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Old 15-09-2020, 17:30   #16
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

I used to worry about money .. about those who have so much more than everybody else. then I figured .. why worry about it? do whatever you can to make things right and be happy
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Old 15-09-2020, 17:57   #17
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

I wish I was surprised at the number of people I encounter that want to bury their heads in the sand by actively rejecting news, reports, and information that contradicts their viewpoint - but I'm not.
I am surprised and quite frankly angry at those who champion this course of self-inflected ignorance.
The older I get the more I am aware and therefore concerned that in this modern age, where knowledge is easier to find than ever before in human history, there's a very vocal part of the population that actively tries to suppress it, whether it be abstinence only sex education or climate change deniers or those who shoot "fake news" at any source with which they disagree.
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Old 15-09-2020, 17:59   #18
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post

There is nothing fake about the degradation of many of our planet's ecosystems. And there's nothing fake about our collective complicity in the activities that produce this outcome.

It's a complex situation; just as the story and the UN report says. It's not black and white, win or lose. It's also very real.
As a biologist I can also confirm that the Guardian article is definitely not fake news. And while I have been trained to question everything, the evidence regarding the rapid decline of the marine biosphere is unquestionable. As a sailor, I do my very best to minimize my impact on the environment so that I and others can enjoy it and/or make a sustainable living from it. But as noted in the post quoted here, the situation is very complex. It is not just those of us with the wherewithal to own and operate a pleasure boat that are creating many of the problems leading to the demise of marine and other environments. Its not just the large resource extraction and processing industries - its everybody. Finding a way to provide sustainable livelihoods to the earth's still rapidly growing population is hugely challenging. As a colleague once said to me, there is no such thing as "sustainable development" - we need to focus on developing sustainability.

I am also a big fan of Garret Hardin noted in a thread above. His work was pivotal in bringing the fate of the earth to the attention of a large number of people in the late 60's/early 70's, along with others like Paul Ehrlich. That was a long time ago and because of them and others like them, much progress has been made. But we aren't done yet and need for even greater, more broadly based action, is imperative.

The good news is that lots of people are thinking about the problems and working towards solutions. This video is from colleagues at a relatively small university in a relatively remote part of Indonesia. They have identified some of the key challenges involved in ecosystem conservation - protecting the environment while at the same time allowing people to live a reasonable life. This example is not marine but anything done in a rain-forest will eventually affect a nearby ocean.

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Old 15-09-2020, 18:39   #19
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

This is all just too funny.
"cruisers examples to the rest of the world" ....god what rubbish. Look how we deal with our first world problems.
What you all seem to miss is that you have about the value, impact and importance of a single ant on the entire planet.
China gonna do what china gonna do, india the same....etc etc etc. It's called evolution. If humanity has a nuclear war next week started by the russians or the Nth Koreans or the iranians or who ever and the oceans turn black and 90% of life on earth dies....well thats just evolution.
The planet will still be here, dont worry.
Be a happy ant. Dont pour oil in the water, recycle.....whatever makes you feel good. Living life like that angry little sweed with mental issues would just totally suck.
Go ahead if you like, better you than me.
Just remember, absolutely everything dies. Everything. The good , the bad, the lawyers, the politicians, the rapist , the murderers, the saints. All dead, all gonna die.
Accept that and enjoy the short insignificant life of a valueless ant with a happy disposition.Best ya gonna do!
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Old 15-09-2020, 20:30   #20
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

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... I was taking an Econ 101 class. The first day of class the professor asked us, why are the whales going extinct? Of course, we all had answers. He said, no. It's because no one owns the whales. Since no one owns them no one has a vested interest in protecting them. Why are 90% of the large predatory fish gone from the ocean? The ocean they live in is not owned, or guarded and protected by anyone.
This is the problem, though maybe I'm coming from another angle.

Replace every occurrence of 'one' with 'human'. The problem should jump out more sharply: the hubris to think that we own everything; that everything is here for our benefit and has no intrinsic value otherwise. And the arrogance to think that there's no other frame of reference besides human economics.

And even within the narrow frame of economics, the unwillingness to accept that we can't have limitless growth on a finite planet. If we're killing off the environment, we are reducing the planet's future capability to carry us as well.

We might be no more significant than ants, but we're ants who know that we are screwing things up for the ants that will come after us.
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Old 15-09-2020, 20:57   #21
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

Most developed countries have slightly negative population growth. Women have figured out pushing out more babies is a solution to nothing. Underdeveloped countries - who can least afford it - still have positive population growth.
Allowing immigration from underdeveloped countries to developed countries will push the planet over the edge even faster. Education for women is the best thing possible for our planet - and access to contraceptives.
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Old 15-09-2020, 23:59   #22
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Nay.



So what I am saying is - it is not about news - it is about our fail, and about our failure to see beyond the tip of our dollar.



Yours,
b.

you can pull that thread even further. actually i believe you can trace every single bad thing men do to each other and the environment to one single cause. our ego. i believe its the root of every single one of our weaknesses and sufferings.

we are still driven by a primitive ego. i cant explain why but the consequence is obvious. until men start to realize this, become aware of it and learn to control it...unfortunately we will continue down the path were on.

amazingly it boggles the mind when you start to pay attention and realize just how minuscule a segment of humanity is actually aware of it and the consequences for being so un-aware.

ironically one of the fiercest cultures to ever inhabit this planet, the pre-Buddhist Tibetans, who conquered much of the known world hundreds of years before Genghis Khan, figured this out over a thousand years ago with the help of Buddhism. they are now and have been for hundreds of years the most peaceful nation on the planet.

i guess if they could figure it out theres hope for the rest of us. so much for our big universities and our big brains...

if all else fails, scientists speculate the earth has approximately a billion or so years left where it will still be habitable so mother nature has plenty of time to correct her human experiment and try again...
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Old 16-09-2020, 08:24   #23
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Interesting story. I read it as a mixed bag of successes and failures. The top headline doesn't convey the complexity of the report, but the story does a pretty good job. Amusing that some here immediately react with accusations of "fake news" or left bias.

There is nothing fake about the degradation of many of our planet's ecosystems. And there's nothing fake about our collective complicity in the activities that produce this outcome.

How people respond to these facts are up to each of us. I've certainly made choices to try and limit my impact on this planet, including my choice to live a cruising lifestyle. But I'm no eco-hero by any means. Humans have as much a right to live and thrive on this planet as other critters. And this means having some impacts.

It's a complex situation; just as the story and the UN report says. It's not black and white, win or lose. It's also very real.

+1 Mike! A very good summation.

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Old 16-09-2020, 08:49   #24
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

I thought this was a boating forum?
If I want to be depressed I will watch Fox or CNN
I go here to get away from that.
What we are going thru is nothing new, read your history going back
hundreds of years> This is just a repeat!
and get back on the water.
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Old 16-09-2020, 08:56   #25
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marathon1150 View Post
I am also a big fan of Garret Hardin noted in a thread above. His work was pivotal in bringing the fate of the earth to the attention of a large number of people in the late 60's/early 70's, along with others like Paul Ehrlich. That was a long time ago and because of them and others like them, much progress has been made. But we aren't done yet and need for even greater, more broadly based action, is imperative.
Interesting to see you brought up Paul Ehrlch. Seems like his work has been mostly forgotten or ignore in recent years. At the end of the day the pressure of feeding and supporting larger and larger populations on the earth must have an impact on the environment and resources.

Surprised I had not previously encountered Garret Hardin. Have some new reading to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marathon1150 View Post
The good news is that lots of people are thinking about the problems and working towards solutions. This video is from colleagues at a relatively small university in a relatively remote part of Indonesia. They have identified some of the key challenges involved in ecosystem conservation - protecting the environment while at the same time allowing people to live a reasonable life. This example is not marine but anything done in a rain-forest will eventually affect a nearby ocean.
And the bad news is that some people are ignoring the problems or completely denying that they exist.

The concept that the oceans and other systems aren't being protected because no one owns them is interesting and possibly very pertinent. I have read about successful programs to restore the marine life and local ecosystems by involving the local residents. By showing them the direct benefits and giving them a vested interest in the results they have become very active in protecting and restoring the local systems. This can give them a better harvest of fish or increased ecotourism or in other ways an overall better quality of life.
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Old 16-09-2020, 09:02   #26
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

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Originally Posted by bjp447 View Post
I thought this was a boating forum?
If I want to be depressed I will watch Fox or CNN
I go here to get away from that.
What we are going thru is nothing new, read your history going back
hundreds of years> This is just a repeat!
and get back on the water.
I find this very relevant to my boating and cruising. The loss of coral reefs in the Keys, the Bahamas and Caribbean in my relatively short cruising career is very important to me and I think bears discussing and looking for solutions, some that might involve the boating community as a part of that solution.

I agree that it is depressing but should we ignore it? If too depressing for you then, very respectfully, it is easy enough to ignore the discussions you don't like.
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Old 16-09-2020, 09:13   #27
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

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Originally Posted by AndyEss View Post
Most developed countries have slightly negative population growth. Women have figured out pushing out more babies is a solution to nothing. Underdeveloped countries - who can least afford it - still have positive population growth.
Allowing immigration from underdeveloped countries to developed countries will push the planet over the edge even faster. Education for women is the best thing possible for our planet - and access to contraceptives.
I have said most of my adult life (I am now 73) that most of our world problems could be at least helped if not solved by education.
One problem that I seem to see in the USA (and maybe other countries as well) is that instead of education our children seem to be getting indoctrination.
I think that a good course in LOGIC should be required for each and every person on earth.

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Old 16-09-2020, 09:18   #28
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

Actually, today more than ever, we all need to rethink what we are doing to the planet and change our behavior as much as possible. Between the virus, the fires, the hurricanes, the melting glaciers, and so on, it feels like nature has lost its patience and is getting back to humanity.

It is up to us as individuals to make a change, I have given up on orchestrated efforts by governments, countries, etc. Just read this article, those efforts have failed on all fronts.
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Old 16-09-2020, 09:32   #29
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
I find this very relevant to my boating and cruising. The loss of coral reefs in the Keys, the Bahamas and Caribbean in my relatively short cruising career is very important to me and I think bears discussing and looking for solutions, some that might involve the boating community as a part of that solution.
I have lost interest in diving recently. It is too sad. I went to Maui two years in a row and dove at the same spot. In just one year, a vibrant reef full of marine life was now dead. I came back from that dive incredibly depressed.
I then dove in Thailand near Maya Beach, it was so crowded underwater that different groups had to stay at different depth so they would not hit each other. When we emerged, the dive boats were waiting in line to pick up their divers, there were easily hundred divers waiting for pick up. The various dive masters had flags of different colors to distinguish themselves from others so the dive boat could find the group. And of course, no marine life. It was surreal. We canceled our remaining dives there.

There are still pristine spots (I am not telling where), but generally speaking this is too sad to accept it and do nothing.
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Old 16-09-2020, 09:49   #30
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Re: Are You Troubled ENOUGH ?

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As you've seen in just a handful of comments, no I don't think that's the case on CF. But do consider the audience... mainly people from the privileged western countries who have been successful enough to indulge in cruising. Past success is a pretty solid vote for the status quo, with not much interest in reflection or guilt.

All one can do is express concern, try to influence things locally, and to at least keep one's own corner of the world as clean and low-impact as they can.
Actually, that "privileged class" are more likely to get upset about progress as they already have their wealth.

Who cares if you shut down some poor person's farm or the plant they work at so the "privileged class" can retain a pretty view.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't manage progress but the people often hurt most by poorly crafted eco-faith typically hurt those with the least say.
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