3 Dead, 5 Injured

[TrentePieds]

Thanks Mike :-)

It was not difficult to deduce what had happened here, and beyond the "conjectures" I've already made, we can now as a result of the clips to which your link leads us, conjecture that the three young people who died were the after-most people in the tinny and that the five survivors include the driver of the speedboat. "Charges have not yet been laid" would tend to confirm that.

My posts are, of course, a general plea for responsible conduct on the water, which we now have quite strong evidence that the driver of the speedboat was not in the habit of displaying. He may have had a PCOC, but, unfortunately, common sense and responsible behaviour do not come with the card.

There is a good deal of talk these days about "proportionate" responses to this and that. As I see it, when anyone of us observes conduct such as that allegedly exhibited quite frequently by the driver of this boat, our proportionate response should be to report it immediately to the local competent authority.

If the pending investigation shows what I expect it will show, I believe a charge of man-slaughter should be brought against that man.

TP

[JPA Cate]

TP, in Canada, do you have degrees of "manslaughter", like 1st, 2nd, 3rd? or "aggravated"?

On edit:

I wanted, again, to offer my condolences to those who lost their loved ones. The young woman who was killed looks so much like my youngest granddaughter.... I hope all of you have good friends around to help now.

Ann

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

TP, in Canada, do you have degrees of "manslaughter", like 1st, 2nd, 3rd? or "aggravated"? ...

No.
In Canada, manslaughter is a less serious type of homicide. It is characterized as the killing of another person, without the intention to kill. Similar to second degree murder, it is defined by what it is not. Section 234 of the Criminal Code defines manslaughter as: “culpable homicide that is not murder or infanticide”.

There are four types of culpable homicide in Canada: first-degree murder, second-degree murder, manslaughter, and infanticide.
First-degree murder is the planned and deliberate death of another person.
Second-degree murder is murder that is not planned but is deliberate.
Manslaughter is the death of another person that is neither planned nor deliberate, but results from the actions of the accused.

[JPA Cate]

^^^^

Thanks, Gord.


Condolences to those affected by this negligent event.

Ann

[Mike OReilly]

Agreed TP, the emerging story of what appears to have happened here seems all-too clear. But you never know... there could still be surprise info yet to be revealed.

It will be interesting to see what is concluded about the use of proper running lights. The eyewitness accounts suggest the tinny was lacking here, but that is not clear yet. Regardless, it appears that recklessness, including illegal speed, was the primary cause. The whole area is clearly posted at 10 km/hr.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

There is a good deal of talk these days about "proportionate" responses to this and that. As I see it, when anyone of us observes conduct such as that allegedly exhibited quite frequently by the driver of this boat, our proportionate response should be to report it immediately to the local competent authority.

It sounds like this "speed boat" owner had a history of dangerous behaviour. I assume this will come to light through any official charges and court cases to follow. But it illustrates how hard it is to police irresponsible activity. It's much like reckless speeding and weaving on our highways; some people behave like the law doesn't apply to them, and they are somehow entitled to drive however they want.

[Mickeyrouse]

Originally Posted by DragonflyBob

We were on the ICW motoring at 6-7 knots from Pensacola, FL to The Wharf Marina in Gulf Shores, AL about 10 days ago on a Saturday. The stupidity shown by probably 25% of the powerboaters was astounding. To make it worse, there was a Poker Run happening and we had idiots in high speed center consoles and Scarab/Cigarette type boats buzzing past us at 50-70 mph 50-100 feet away. Scary!

We’ve cruised the length of the Gulf coast several times. The only place that the power boaters scare me more than the Gulf Shores area is Kemah-Seabrook on Galveston Bay.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

...It will be interesting to see what is concluded about the use of proper running lights...

This is where the lawyers usually go to get the charges dismissed. Of course I don't know the facts of this specific case, but if you can sow doubt in the jury's mind as to whether or not the victim boat had working, 100% compliant lights, you can generally avoid the worst charges.

Another reason to consider making sure yours are fully operational and meet all the legal requirements.

The only thing worse than this tragedy, in my mind, would be the perpetrator getting away scot-free. (Assuming that the insinuations about the operator are true, which again, we don't really know yet.)

[TrentePieds]

As I understand our (Canadian) law - but I'm not a lawyer - there can/will be two actions arising from this incident: 1) A case under the Criminal Code of Canada and 2) a civil case for damages brought by the surviving victims against the surviving perpetrator.

As an interjection, we might wonder if the speed boat driver even has liability insurance!!

As Gord May pointed out, there are four classifications of homicide in Canada. first degree murder, second degree murder, manslaughter and infanticide. The distinction between murder and manslaughter hinges on the question of intent. I think it is clear that the driver of the speedboat did not intend to kill people, but the fact is that he did, without provocation, kill three people. Wantonly, apparently, so he is also guilty of what the law calls "gross negligence". Manslaughter it must therefore be. For those convicted of manslaughter the penalty is life imprisonment. Gradations of the severity of the punishment would normally be expressed as gradations of the convict's eligibility for parole, e.g. eligible after 10 years, after 20 years or not at all. "Life imprisonment" except in the rarest of cases, such as that of mass murderer Robert Pickton, means eligibility for parole after 25 years.

The question of whether the tinny showed the required lights is as yet unknown to us. It will have no bearing on the criminal case. It is a matter that will be taken into consideration during any action in tort arising from the incident, during which the relative proportions of responsibility to be borne by plaintiff and respondent will be determined. That determination will affect the magnitude of a damages the court will assess against the respondent.

This layman considers the actions of the speedboat driver so egregious that if cases in tort are brought against him, he should be held responsible under the doctrine of "strict liability", i.e. he should be held 100% responsible - no extenuating circumstances considered.

It should be noted that the driver of the speedboat (or indeed his estate if he had died in the incident) has the right to sue the driver of the tinny in tort. To be able to call itself civilized, a system of jurisprudence must permit such a thing, distasteful as you and I might find it in this particular case.

TP

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

The whole area is clearly posted at 10 km/hr.

Has the position of the crash been determined? I've only seen it listed as being in Buck Bay. The speed limit zone is confined to the narrow channel that connects the bay to the main lake.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

This layman considers the actions of the speedboat driver so egregious that if cases in tort are brought against him, he should be held responsible under the doctrine of "strict liability", i.e. he should be held 100% responsible - no extenuating circumstances considered.

It should be noted that the driver of the speedboat (or indeed his estate if he had died in the incident) has the right to sue the driver of the tinny in tort. To be able to call itself civilized, a system of jurisprudence must permit such a thing, distasteful as you and I might find it in this particular case.

TP

All that and you've seem to have forgotten a major tenet of our legal system - presumption of innocence until guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Has the position of the crash been determined? I've only seen it listed as being in Buck Bay. The speed limit zone is confined to the narrow channel that connects the bay to the main lake.

I assume it's been determined, but I haven't seen a specific position reported by officials. I was quoting the eyewitness reports:

"The speed limit for boats in that area of Bobs Lake is 10 kilometres per hour, but neighbours say the limit is often ignored."

https://globalnews.ca/news/10511631/...-kingston-ont/

The whole area/lake is really not that big. Judging from the images of the wrecked boats, the speedboat's outboard was very large. That boat would have been able to nearly fly.

Originally Posted by Lodesman

All that and you've seem to have forgotten a major tenet of our legal system - presumption of innocence until guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Indeed, this is the case for criminal charges. But the quotes you reference from TP is when he is discussing civil action. Civil cases are decided on a balance of probabilities, not at the much higher standard of beyond reasonable doubt.

[TrentePieds]

Yes Mike you are right.

And Lodesman, please note that NOWHERE have I said that the speedboat driver should be CONVICTED. What I have said is that he should CHARGED. Charging is the essential first step that leads to a determination by a competent Court of whether a SUSPECT is guilty of the charge or not. And only the specific charge is up for consideration by the Court. Charging is done by qualified prosecutors employed by thee and me - the public, and on behalf of thee and me - the public. There are strict legal criteria a proposed charge must satisfy before it will be accepted by a Court so the suspect can be brought before it. If the criteria are not met, the Court will not consider the case.

That I, myself, believe, as indeed I do, that this particular speedboat driver is guilty of manslaughter is neither here nor there. UNLESS the suspect pleads guilty in court, which is his right, he cannot be FOUND guilty as charged except by a jury of peers. If I were selected for that man's jury, my opinion would STILL cut no ice unless eleven other people shared my view and said so to the judge by way of the jury chairman.

I am far, far from ignorant, let alone heedless, of the finest of the principles of Canada's system of jurisprudence - the one you cite, viz that a man is innocent until proven guilty. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with my right to hold any opinion I wish of this particular speedboat driver. Nor with your right to do likewise :-).

But that will suffice. We are straying far, far away from what is directly relevant to matters of boating and cruising. I shall say no more about Canada's legal system in general. You and I have both broken our forums rules by straying this far afield.

All the best

TP

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

And Lodesman, please note that NOWHERE have I said that the speedboat driver should be CONVICTED. What I have said is that he should CHARGED.

Would it have helped if I parsed your quote to this specifically?:

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

This layman considers the actions of the speedboat driver so egregious

You've already hanged the guy.
He may be as guilty as sin, but I'm not a fan of the current fad of convicting people on social media before they've even been charged.
You don't know if he was speeding or not. You don't know if the other boat was lit or not.
Put another way, if he was travelling at a reasonable speed, displaying his navlights and the other boat was just sitting there dark - would you consider his actions egregious?

[lestersails]

I would be interested to know how many of you have reported reckless behavior by a boater and gotten any traction on that. My impression and assumption is that unless there is an accident, they authorities just can't be bothered with it.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by lestersails

I would be interested to know how many of you have reported reckless behavior by a boater and gotten any traction on that. My impression and assumption is that unless there is an accident, they authorities just can't be bothered with it.

I tried a few times but have found that law enforcement has zero interest.

Mainly they show up at the boat ramp, write a few parking tickets, then count fish and lifejackets and look for expired stickers.


On the accident, well, I don't understand people with go-fast boats and I don't understand wakeboats. For the most part there's no way to operate those boats in a fashion that is respectful of the environment and of other water users.