Want To Buy: Bluewater cruiser 12m+, EU-taxed

[Sailing Hanse37]

Originally Posted by Anders

Modern boats have lots of space but not much storage. I suspect my old 30 has more storage than your bene 43.

Is that so or is it what you believe ? I am really curious strange strange strange … storage above water i mean, thus without sinking…

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Sailing Hanse37

None of both has ever been designed as blue water cruiser, so i don’t know what the relevance is of your post ? Facts are facts ?

What is a blue water cruiser exactly? I think you will find the Longbow designed for sailing in places like the N Sea when its grey and knarly. If you have evidence that they weren't designed for passage making, then we would be interested to hear this.

Pete

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Sailing Hanse37

Thank you, your apologies are accepted

You do have a sense of humour then... likely why you suggest the Bene..

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Sailing Hanse37

Most of the boats crossing oceans nowadays are … production boats.

I thought Moody's were production boats.



Most boats now a days join rallies or circumnavigate to to tick life lists.

[gordonhinds]

I’d go up a notch to 45’. Draft is a big issue so keep around 1.8/1.9 meters. Access to stuff is important like electrics. Avoid in mast furling. Have enough room on the bow for a furling aso sail so maybe a little bow sprit.

I bought a yacht (38’) 18 months ago that needed a lot more work that I estimated. A lot more. It’s great for short handed sailing but a bit skimpy on storage space. It was built by a kiwi who didn’t wear clothes or eat. So clever storage is good.

I’d add a watermarked as well.

Good autopilot. And access to quadrant (and engine)

Good power systems (wind gen for night sailing to drive the hydronic drive)

Swim platform

Dodger

Good electrics

Davits

Working hi aspect jib.

Boom tent

Great plan. Go for it.

[CFR]

i bought a one off Aluminium 44 marimba 10 years ago and sailing the Med since then. 40 years old, old style inside which means no space but a lot of storage, much more then the new stuff. the sea does not change so old style is good, long keel , protected rudder, big tanks, strong rigging,all the new stuff is nice for 2 weeks holiday and mostly cheaply built for the chartermarket.....but not for living



no no teak deck, in the Med you can not walk and repair is costly , old engines often simpler to maintain



i paid 100 k ten years ago and put 20 in.......devalk is a good place to look......in principle any boat will do above 12 m ic you check the electric and plumbing......would nit hesitate to sail anywhere with my boat.

[keith.robinson]

A member for awhile but never a poster , for years 2 topics come up all the time . 1 catamaran or Mono 🙁 who cares where all sailers . 2 . modern boats or older boats , you know the so called Blue water boat argument , example my westsail is better to go around the world than your carbon Volvo 60 and so no , ( let’s not start on how many times I have read the line I have no experience but I am looking for a blue water boat ) give me a break , go get so experience first you fool Back to topic , it’s time to end this rubbbish , I am almost 60y sailed for over 50 y and sails and owned all manner classic , old , modern , racer , production boats made from all build materials all types of brands but in the end people it’s not the boat it’s you ability to understand and sail or handle your boat , So remember this , THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BLUE WATER BOAT ONLY BLUE WATER SAILERS

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by keith.robinson

A member for awhile but never a poster , for years 2 topics come up all the time . 1 catamaran or Mono 🙁 who cares where all sailers . 2 . modern boats or older boats , you know the so called Blue water boat argument , example my westsail is better to go around the world than your carbon Volvo 60 and so no , ( let’s not start on how many times I have read the line I have no experience but I am looking for a blue water boat ) give me a break , go get so experience first you fool Back to topic , it’s time to end this rubbbish , I am almost 60y sailed for over 50 y and sails and owned all manner classic , old , modern , racer , production boats made from all build materials all types of brands but in the end people it’s not the boat it’s you ability to understand and sail or handle your boat , So remember this , THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BLUE WATER BOAT ONLY BLUE WATER SAILERS

You are of an age that understands this. Unfortunately, modern society protects individuals to the detriment of the community. Millennials have been bought up cosseted in a world of regulation and certification. Certificates to change light bulbs, safety warnings on coffee cups and the belief that Category A "Ocean" Certification means that anybody can suddenly sail said boat off across a ocean.



For those few who are free thinking individuals there are still opportunities to beat the system such as the Jester Challenge to sail across the N. Atlantic. There are no boat safety checks, no entry fees and, famously, no rules, although there are guidelines. https://jesterchallenge.wordpress.co...er-guidelines/

Note: for sailing vessels between 20 and 30ft including multihulls. I am guessing but most if not all of the entrants boats would be CE Category C or below.



Yes - You are absolutely correct the definition of "blue water" should be reserved for sailors. The ocean doesn't have signs warning not to go near the edge.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

You are of an age that understands this. Unfortunately, modern society protects individuals to the detriment of the community. Millennials have been bought up cosseted in a world of regulation and certification. Certificates to change light bulbs, safety warnings on coffee cups and the belief that Category A "Ocean" Certification means that anybody can suddenly sail said boat off across a ocean.



For those few who are free thinking individuals there are still opportunities to beat the system such as the Jester Challenge to sail across the N. Atlantic. There are no boat safety checks, no entry fees and, famously, no rules, although there are guidelines. https://jesterchallenge.wordpress.co...er-guidelines/

Note: for sailing vessels between 20 and 30ft including multihulls. I am guessing but most if not all of the entrants boats would be CE Category C or below.



Yes - You are absolutely correct the definition of "blue water" should be reserved for sailors. The ocean doesn't have signs warning not to go near the edge.

It’s your interpretation that’s faulty. CE category A does not guarantee you have a boat suitable for survival conditions.

But equally the vast majority of CE A boats ( especially since the upgrade to the underlying ISO standards ) are quite capable of taking a competent sailor across the typical transoceanic sailing routes.

This is demonstrated every year as ordinary production boats cross oceans.

This is why the “ blue water “ boat argument is nonsense. Everything today with a CE A rating and over 40 feet is more then sufficient ( with appropriate fit out ) to cross oceans.

The key difference is the crew. It’s a peculiar ideology, often seen here , that somehow if I get a so called “ bulletproof “ boat it somehow will protect me from my self.

That’s simply wrong , incompetence can sink anything

The issue is not modern certification. In fact due to both standards and certification , sailing remains a very very safe undertaking, yet there are millions more sailing then when the original Observer challenge ran

You used to get knighted if you made it round the world. Now it’s “meh”. A bit like a transit to the South Pole is a extended walk in the park these days ( tech , nutrition , fitness , clothing )

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s your interpretation that’s faulty. CE category A does not guarantee you have a boat suitable for survival conditions.

Certificates to change light bulbs, safety warnings on coffee cups and the belief that Category A "Ocean" Certification means that anybody can suddenly sail said boat off across a ocean.


It wasn't my interpretation it was my observation of the modern attitude towards regulation and certification. It implies that people will be safe by making them "feel" safe.

[xslim]

Not sure why you need a 2 heads in 40ft. It takes valuable cabin space. Why not just carry a spare toilet pump?

As to boats - I would shy away from steel - it might look nice on surface, but you might get into very long refit if there is rust.
For aluminum - you might also check Alubat Ovni.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Certificates to change light bulbs, safety warnings on coffee cups and the belief that Category A "Ocean" Certification means that anybody can suddenly sail said boat off across a ocean.


It wasn't my interpretation it was my observation of the modern attitude towards regulation and certification. It implies that people will be safe by making them "feel" safe.

You view is rather dogmatic. The Recreational Craft Directive primary motive is to facilitate the free trade of boats within the EU. It supplanted differing standards in major European markets , particularly Germany , France , Italy and the U.K.

It’s secondary motive was to establish minimum standards to encourage quality and to remove poor builders from the marketplace.

Hence RCD categories are essentially advisory, the RCD is not responsible for people mis-interpreting the process.

However taken in the round a modern CE A vessel doesn’t feel safe. It is manifestly safe.

Personal certification is a boon also. The more people are trained the more they tend to realise want they don’t know. The “ bluffer “ relying on mere experience may have huge gaps in their knowledge because of particular experiences yet may be far too confident for their own good.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You view is rather dogmatic. The Recreational Craft Directive primary motive is to facilitate the free trade of boats within the EU. It supplanted differing standards in major European markets , particularly Germany , France , Italy and the U.K.

More exactly a result of lobbying by large European boat builders, primarily French, with high labour costs to reduce the competition from US builders.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s secondary motive was to establish minimum standards to encourage quality and to remove poor builders from the marketplace.

it actually removed a large number of small but very good builders from the market and polarised it towards large builders, the same builders that lobbied.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Hence RCD categories are essentially advisory, the RCD is not responsible for people mis-interpreting the process.

I rest my case

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

However taken in the round a modern CE A vessel doesn’t feel safe. It is manifestly safe.

Maybe there are a few Lagoon owners with Category A boats that would argue differently. Perhaps a reason the RCD is advisory, no come back if something goes terribly wrong as in the case Lagoon. Shouldn't Lagoon be held responsible under trade descriptions. You get my point it only seems to be illegal to sell a boat that doesn't have a CE sticker.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Personal certification is a boon also. The more people are trained the more they tend to realise want they don’t know. The “ bluffer “ relying on mere experience may have huge gaps in their knowledge because of particular experiences yet may be far too confident for their own good.

And the more so called captains we have after 6 week training courses. The trouble with rules and regulations is they are thought up by committees the majority of whom qualified in political history and implemented by quangos.



The ability for people in the western world to take responsibility for their own actions has been lost.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

More exactly a result of lobbying by large European boat builders, primarily French, with high labour costs to reduce the competition from US builders.





it actually removed a large number of small but very good builders from the market and polarised it towards large builders, the same builders that lobbied.





I rest my case





Maybe there are a few Lagoon owners with Category A boats that would argue differently. Perhaps a reason the RCD is advisory, no come back if something goes terribly wrong as in the case Lagoon. Shouldn't Lagoon be held responsible under trade descriptions. You get my point it only seems to be illegal to sell a boat that doesn't have a CE sticker.





And the more so called captains we have after 6 week training courses. The trouble with rules and regulations is they are thought up by committees the majority of whom qualified in political history and implemented by quangos.



The ability for people in the western world to take responsibility for their own actions has been lost.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

More exactly a result of lobbying by large European boat builders, primarily French, with high labour costs to reduce the competition from US builders.





it actually removed a large number of small but very good builders from the market and polarised it towards large builders, the same builders that lobbied.





I rest my case





Maybe there are a few Lagoon owners with Category A boats that would argue differently. Perhaps a reason the RCD is advisory, no come back if something goes terribly wrong as in the case Lagoon. Shouldn't Lagoon be held responsible under trade descriptions. You get my point it only seems to be illegal to sell a boat that doesn't have a CE sticker.





And the more so called captains we have after 6 week training courses. The trouble with rules and regulations is they are thought up by committees the majority of whom qualified in political history and implemented by quangos.



The ability for people in the western world to take responsibility for their own actions has been lost.

The RCD came about largely from lobbying from the British Maritime industry federation ( aided by the Dutch and Belgians ) complaining that its boat products were subject to different national standards in Germany , Italy and France whereas such countries had no specific standards to meet to sell into U.K. coastal markets. The British knew it would affect small builders but pressed on .

In fact the RCD compliance is not what forced small builders under. ( oil and labour costs did)

The U.K. is behind virtual 65% of all EU laws and directives.

Competition from the US was never a factor. The EU /Europeans dominate sailing boat manufacturers and have completely outperformed the US worldwide in this sector and dominate the seas . Only in small sports boats is the US the market leader.

( Pre rcd you never saw US sailboats here anyway and fewer mobos )

The RCD categories are only advisory , the RCD itself is a legal requirement.

The rcd is backed by an extremely experienced technical group and the iso standards process. This is expertise the average boater doesn’t have.

How can a boater judge scantling quality ,or righting moments. It’s just nonsense

Standards improve the overall safety and quality that’s a proven point.

Competence training doesn’t turn out “ captains “ it turns out boaters that now at least know more then they did before the course ( this is amply demonstrated by appalling VHF usage in the US for example )

That’s all. You can’t get full captains license “ like six packs or YM commercial “ without considerable sea miles and competency examinations.

The mass produced boats today are more capable and better equipped then anytime in the past . Sailing was an elite sport/hobby not anymore

Thank goodness for standards and training and hopefully more jurisdictions will implement both.

The fact that occasionally boat models have issues is nothing to do with the RCD and everything to do with the naval architect and individual build process.

I’d argue given the explosion in sailing numbers , there’s clearly a benefit to standards and competency training. I’d shudder to think of we had a free for all the mess we would have now. ( cheap boats built in China for a start like some of the US stuff )