Leopard 38: R&C Leopard 38 - 45 - 47

[billgow]

Originally Posted by shawnbush12

I know the reefs and wrecks at Key Largo area since I dove there over 60 times in the last 3 years so I would have to stop on the way out/in to hit a dive spot...

I'm betting you're talking about the John Pennekamp area. I'm more familiar with the waters a little north of there. I always wanted to get down there to have a look around.

Lets go fishin'!!

[billgow]

Originally Posted by freetime

Is a Leopard 45/47 faster than F-P in same size? What is the weight?

Good question. There's another thread that was supposed to answer that question but has gotten a little side tracked lately;

Fast Cruisingcatamarans? How fast?

I'd like to know how the Leopards stack up myself. The polar charts look as good or better than most in their range but I'd rather have the word of real world users than material that came from the builder or broker.

I didn't see any entered in the ARC race but there were lots of Lagoons in top slots and I've heard those are slugs by comparison.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Cape to Bahia Race & Rally 2006


South Atlantic Race

[Tim Schaaf]

I have owned and lived aboard a 45 for the last four years. For the last three, I have operated it as a crewed charter boat in the BVI and down island. Jet Stream is a 1999 model, originally in the Moorings crewed yacht fleet and therefor the beneficiary of numerous upgrades and, hopefully, better care than a bareboat of that time. She has been extensively upgraded and refitted by me in the years I have owned her.

For what it is worth, I come from a monohull background, having lived aboard a 33 foot mono, cruising her extensively, since 1982. I still have that boat, too, and have never fallen "out of love" with her, either. I was one of those who thought anyone on a cat was nuts.

Jet Stream has taught me otherwise. The Leopard 45 is an excellent boat, and after four years, continues to exceed expectations and show me nice new little features on a regular basis. We have sailed her as far north as the Chesapeake, and as far south as Grenada. I have also captained several 47's for the Moorings and like them, as well. By the way, they are not "just 2 feet longer at the transoms". While the interiors of the hulls are almost identical, the salon and galley are significantly different. Each has its advantages and adherents and detractors and both are worth examining as they ARE different. The crewed versions also include an optional smaller salon table which works far better than the big one standard on bareboats, and I would think that anyone would be well served with this modification. My own personal feeling is that the salon of the 47 is slightly better, but the galley in the 45 is considerably better. Others might disagree...best to look for yourself.

As a sailboat, the Leopard does very well. Mine is very heavily loaded....a liveaboard with all the charterboat toys and equipment, plus the larger fuel and water tanks, generator and A/C that came with the crewed version. Jet Stream does, however, have feathering Max Props, which may well offset the weight. We also have a 120% jib, as do many other Leopards, but many only carry 110's. In any case, we have never been passed by any Lagoon, F/P, or Privilege, up to 50 feet in length, with the possible exception of the Lagoon 500, which we have not sailed against. When I say never, I mean not even once, and we sail against those other boats all the time here in the BVI. Our experience against Voyage 50's is typical of these match-ups....the speeds are close enough to make the competition fun, but we just keep inching past them. We also sail as high or higher than all the above. Our speed typically fluctuates around half wind speed, a good bit higher in light winds, tapering off in higher winds. For example, I would expect to do about five knots in eight knots of wind, and eight knots in about fifteen to sixteen knots of wind. In twenty knots of wind, I would be looking for about nine knots. We often hit the low teens, but it is the exception. I would call Jet Stream a very good seven to nine knot boat in the good sailing conditions we have here in the BVI. We start reefing at about twenty knots, although we have carried full sail into the high twenties when not paying attention (!), but I would absolutely NOT recommend this! Low 20's with full sail is OK, but we sail faster, quieter, and a bit higher when reefed. We do better by taking the first reef in the jib, rather than the main. I have the autopilot set to tack through 110 degrees, True, which seems an appropriate average. We can do a good bit better than that in the right conditions, seldom much worse. The boat is quite easy to singlehand, and if you make an effort to dock starboard side-to, (same side as the helm), and bring the starboard stern into the dock rather than the bow, you can even dock quite well singlehanded, as well. The hardest thing to do singlehanded is to raise the anchor. This is made a lot easier by raising the main first, and strapping it in tight, especially in a lot of wind. The sail helps offset the windage forward and keeps the boat from zigzagging too much while upping the anchor. Remember, the anchor does not come up over the forward crossbeam, but from the front of the bridgedeck, which means the pivot point is well back from the bow. There are quite a few tricks to optimize these boats (I am still discovering some, even now) as there are with many others.

We do slam the underdeck more than I would like, but I am used to it, and most other cats slam a good bit, too.

Structurally, these boats are very sound. Any boat should be carefully surveyed, but of the ones here in the BVI (and I am very well acquainted with many) there have been very few structural or osmosis issues. Some of the bareboats do get knocked around a good bit, and I have seen a horror story or two when it comes to the repairs done to them, but in general, the 45 and 47 are very stout boats. I have no personal knowledge of the 38, but would think the same would be true of them and the 42/43.

At the risk of exciting some folks, the fact of the matter is that the newer 40 and 46 have had structural issues, at least the ones that have come to the Moorings fleet here in Roadtown. In my opinion, the Morelli designs have not placed the emphasis on strength in the way that the older Simonis designs did, and there has been a lot of re-working and modifying. I would hope that they eventually get it right, and probably they will, but I would be very, very careful. These later designs are fundamentally different from the earlier models, and some people will like the new features but other won't (don't). I have not personally sailed a 40 or a 46, but have been aboard quite a few of each and talked to delivery crews and charter crews who have sailed them. We have not sailed extensively against the 46, but have not seen evidence that it is any faster than the 45. I should point out that sailing Jet Stream virtually every day, we SHOULD have an edge in speed over the average bareboater, but we often sail against other boats with professional crews, as well. The Simonis designs have straight drives, but the 40 and 46 have saildrives. Nice for the designer and builder, maybe not so nice for the owner.....

Among the Moorings family, legend has it that the 47 was lightened considerably over its production run, and that the earlier 47's and the 45's were much stronger. This is the opinion of both captains and maintenance folks. However, Robertson and Caine says this is not so, and neither do the local surveyors. I guess I would like to lift one of each on a travelift, and see what the scales say! What I have observed is that the waterlines are the same, as can be noted on the insides of the hulls where the fairing makes an easily observed reference point. So, as far as I am concerned, the relative structural strengths of the 45 and the 47 is an open question. And, I have never heard of either coming apart.

It would make sense that the 47 would be a bit faster, but I have not proven that to my satisfaction. The 47 is a lot quieter under way, and a lot noisier (wave slap under the longer transom) at anchor. The 47 probably pitches a bit less in some conditions. As the lines of the 45 were simply extended to provide the extra two feet, it would be easy to lengthen a 45. The rudders and shafts are in the exact same place, and I have carefully looked at both out of the water and the lines are merely an extension, with the exception of the sugar scoop coamings which would be easily modified. In fact, there is a boat undergoing this process right now. It has occurred to me that the best of all words might be a 45 with an extension of just one foot (avoiding the wave slap at anchor), with a modification to make its freezer resemble the one on the 47. I think that would be just about perfect, and may do it, someday!

Both boats are designed for ease of maintenance. It is true that the engine room is accessed through the rear hatches and then a door, but this makes for a very protected area. There is also a small hatch under the aft bunk, through which oil and belts can be checked, and another one under the aft cabin seat through which thru-hulls may be opened or closed. So, you can, indeed, do many of the little routine checks without going into the engine room.

Significant to me, since I do most of my maintenance, is that I almost never have to waste time getting at anything. With a very few exceptions, everything is well marked and accessible. Even the tanks or engines can be fairly easily removed, as can be the keels. And, by the way, eventually you WILL have to remove the tanks for repair or replacement, as they are aluminum and eventually corode. But, it is not a biggie, although there is a drain valve that needs removing as part of the process.

The four cabin charter version is ubiquitous. For private use, the rare 47 owner's version would be nice, but with a little thought the charter version can be modified. For example, one head can be converted to a laundry area with washer and dryer. Or on the "owner's" side, one of the heads can be used as a toilet, and the other as a shower, which means you have a separate shower, or there can be a "his" and a "hers" head. Storage similar to the owner's version can be installed in one of the forward cabins, etc. etc. I would not be overly worried if I could not find an owner's version.

Buying from the Moorings was a very good process for me, but it has not been for everyone. Our broker treated us very fairly, competently, professionally and promptly. He remains a friend. But there are quite a few different brokers with the Moorings, and not everyone has had the same experience. In any case, it is very important to realize that the "phase-out" process that the Moorings touts so heavily, is a very subjective and somewhat adversarial process with differing opinions on what is "fair wear and tear" and what is damage. In my opinion, it is very possible to get a very good boat for a very good price, but you have to tread carefully, have your eyes WIDE open, and be prepared to spend lots of time. Almost never will the boat be ready when promised, and if you are pressed for time, or if you use a delivery crew (who will be pressed for time), you stand a very good risk of accepting a boat with what may appear to be minor issues, but that can really add up. In my opinion, you need to be there to check the boat very carefully, accept it yourself, and you need to budget your time so that you can insist on everything being sorted out that should be. You should spend as much time as possible on the boat while they are completing the phase-out, if possible staying aboard and even sailing a bit, before you sign the acceptance. Sometimes they permit this, sometimes not. In any case, put all the systems through their paces, as there are things that even the best surveyor cannot find in the single day he has to check out the boat.....things like the air conditioner that cuts out after several hours, bad thermostat on a fridge, stuff like that, and not cheap to repair or replace.

Bottom line is the Leopard 45/47 is a great boat. I have heard the same of the 38 (probably pitches more since it is shorter) and the 42/43, but my personal experience is with the 45/47. It will sail well and it will be much more easily maintained than all but a very few boats. It will be strong and take you safely where you want to go.

Whether or not you get a good value will be as much a function of the patience and fortitude you devote to the phase-out process as it will be a function of your price-negotiating prowess! Buyer beware....

If you buy from a private buyer, you will, of course, be "buying" his or her diligence in the phase-out process that he or she originally endured, but you may also be the beneficiary of the subsequent love and care, re-fit, and upgrades that this new owner has subsequently lavished upon the boat.

[Tim Schaaf]

A couple more thoughts.

My boat is CE certified category A. Every 45/47 I have looked at in Tortola is the same. Nonetheless, the hatches are pointed foward and there are a couple of other discrepancies/exceptions. I do not know enough about the CE certification to explain this anomaly.

The headliner does provide good insulation. I have had Jet Stream in the Chesapeake during the winter, living aboard, with ice around her on one occasion, and water in the mid thirties for several weeks. We had no sweating. Some friends with a Voyage 440 (no headliner) in New York, sold her because they said she was unliveable in the winter due to condensation. What really surprised me is that the reverse-cycle Westerbeke Rotary Air air/conditioners on Jet Stream, in fact, heat the boat, even with the water temperature below 40 degrees. Quite acceptable, in fact, and I detest the cold. I had been informed that below 50 degree water temperature the units would get much less efficient, and below 40 they would not heat at all, so this was a very nice surprise. Maybe I was just lucky. It does turn out that you want to use the heating function from time to time to keep the reversing valves from seizing up. Probably worth checking on any boat that has lived only in the tropics.

With regard to the Sea of Cortez, I lived and cruised there on my other boat, for over ten years. In the summer, it is quite hot, and, depending on the area, not very windy.
Up north, there is very often a good sailing breeze, and in the La Paz area, there is nice wind, as well. But there are lots of dead spots. In the winter, the Northers blow with cyclical regularity and can be quite formidable. The Banderas Bay area, where Puerto Vallarta is, has much more ideal winter conditions. Having said all of this, I do intend to take Jet Stream back to the Sea of Cortez someday, and think she will do very well. She does sail acceptably in lightish winds, and she would handle the Northers as well as most. If you don't use A/C, you will need to sleep outside in the summer on any boat, and the cockpit or trampoline of the Leopard would be ideal.

The Leopard 45/47 is also very economical under power, since it cruises so well on just one engine. We can cruise at 7 knots on one engine (either one) or 8 -8.5 on both. We routinely go on one and save LOTS of fuel.

The ideal size of a dinghy for the 45/47 is about a ten footer. This can be laid on the swimming platform, or tilted up against the bridgedeck transom, which was the original intent. HOWEVER, many, including myself, use the davits for dinghy storage. And, many of these dinghies are a lot larger than ten feet. Mine is a twelve foot RIB, with 25 HP engine, and we have made a rough weather 1500 mile offshore passage with it on the davits, engine and all. I know of another 45 with a 14 foot dinghy and 40 HP engine, and another with a console rig that weighed 600 pounds. These last two needed modifications to the davits to beef them up. Ours works fine, but it is important to raise the dinghy right up so it wedges against the vertical davit supports. I also tie safety lines around the davits and supports, and, for offshore work, from the bow and stern of the dinghy. Our dighy combo is in the 300-340 pound range. By the way my 45 carries this heavy dinghy, and a 500lb generator in the starboard transom, as did all the "crewed" versions, and still sails well. Doesn't have to be the 47, although I agree that the 47 carries the weight aft much more easily. Getting back to the davits, many people make the mistake of carrying the dinghy partly raised, which subjects the davits to big cyclical side loads that are unsupported. Many, many davits have been snapped this way. It is not safe, and it is not how they were designed to be used.

The hull is cored, below the waterline, but there is a fairly wide center strip that is solid glass. This also supports the flange where the keels are bolted on. So, some thru hulls are through glass and some through balsa. R&C did not use epoxy, but the bedding was done well enough (5200 can be used for structural purposes, after all, it does not always have to be epoxy) that few boats have had problems. I have had every single through hull out, and checked extensively, and have had no problems. Maybe lucky....I agree that it would have been better for R&C to have been more thorough, but it seems not to have had many negative consequences. There are hardwood cores in the area of some of the through hulls, but often the placement of the through hulls has varied enough so that these reinforced areas got missed!

I often see people compare prices of various Leopards advertised, with comments about how over or underpriced they are. I have also helped several people find the 45/47 that they eventually purchased, so have spent lots of time poking around various boats. Their condition has varied very, very widely, and I make special note of things that fall in the "hard to fix" category, as opposed to the "easy to fix" type. I also assess the likely service life remaining of different equipment to try to come up with an actual value of a boat to be compared with the actual value of another.

It should come as small surprise that the lowball boats and the high priced ones usually come out to have very appropriate values. The lowballs almost always have a formidable to-do list, and most of the high priced ones (I know of one very notable exception, recently) are beautifully equipped and really are ready to sail away. So, beware about throwing around comments about comparative prices.....you really DO get what you pay for, in most cases, and there are enough Leopards on the market to keep the playing field pretty level. But, unless you are a boatwright, or at least a very eager do-it-yourself tinkerer with plenty of time, be prepared to spend quite a bit to get that lowballer up to snuff. Really!

[billgow]

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

With regard to the Sea of Cortez, I lived and cruised there on my other boat, for over ten years. In the summer, it is quite hot, and, depending on the area, not very windy.
Up north, there is very often a good sailing breeze, and in the La Paz area, there is nice wind, as well. But there are lots of dead spots. In the winter, the Northers blow with cyclical regularity and can be quite formidable. The Banderas Bay area, where Puerto Vallarta is, has much more ideal winter conditions. Having said all of this, I do intend to take Jet Stream back to the Sea of Cortez someday, and think she will do very well. She does sail acceptably in lightish winds, and she would handle the Northers as well as most. If you don't use A/C, you will need to sleep outside in the summer on any boat, and the cockpit or trampoline of the Leopard would be ideal.

My intention is to buy a 47 and keep it in San Carlos in the summer and move it down to PV in the winter. I want to use it for fishing but intend to spend lots of nights on the hook in secluded coves along both the mainland and Baja.

I checked Weather Underground and noticed that the average winds in the SOC in the summer can reasonably be expected to range from 5 to 15MPH. I hear these boats prefer their wind to start in the 15MPH range. It's been suggested to me by a Moorings rep that I use an asymmetric to help in light winds. What do you think about this?

Besides the ability to carry all my toys a little better, I chose the 47 because it's a bit faster and comes with AC. How annoying would it be to sleep with the generator running all night?

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

The Leopard 45/47 is also very economical under power, since it cruises so well on just one engine. We can cruise at 7 knots on one engine (either one) or 8 -8.5 on both. We routinely go on one and save LOTS of fuel.

I'd use the term super-economical. Even a single engine, center console inhales fuel at 3 or 4 times what a 47 Leopard would.

Thanks for your input! I really appreciate every word of it.

[shawnbush12]

Tim - Great Post.

Billgow - Pennecamp area is correct, did alot of my Divemaster training there. We can go fishing but you are in AZ which is a long way from sailing in the Keys.... Of course I think I should bring mine down to Tim's area and we can race....

As far a the generator running, mine is in next to the starboard engine compartment on the owner side so it is behind the head/shower. we can not hear it in bed and you cannot really even hear it in the salon.

[billgow]

Originally Posted by shawnbush12

Tim - Great Post.

It was awesome! Thanks Tim.

I didn't know about the 45c. My salesman at Moorings wanted me to jet out and see a 45 they just listed that was professionally crewed. I'm guessing that's why. I'm still leaning towards the 47 for the increased speed, though.

Originally Posted by shawnbush12

Of course I think I should bring mine down to Tim's area and we can race....

I want video of you two beating up on a couple Lagoons!

Originally Posted by shawnbush12

As far a the generator running, mine is in next to the starboard engine compartment on the owner side so it is behind the head/shower. we can not hear it in bed and you cannot really even hear it in the salon.

Sweet! I know I'll never get anyone to visit me in Mexico in the summers without AC.

[Tim Schaaf]

I totally agree that the A/C at night is no problem. On Jet Stream, which has the four cabin layout, the genset is under the starboard aft cabin and transom area. And, yes, you can certainly hear it in that cabin, but it is a sort of white noise. You can also feel a little heat. But, that is our cabin and we have never been reluctant to use the genset, for either reason. Plus, if you are not chartering, you simply use a different cabin. You may want to use one cabin for excess storage, and the starboard aft cabin becomes that one. Outside in the cockpit, the genset is barely audible. To tell you the truth, the biggest noise is for other boats, as the water discharge from the exhaust IS audible. And, in the Sea of Cortez, where you will be amongst other cruisers, not many have generators, and running gen sets late at night in shared anchorages is sort of frowned upon, as so many people are sleeping outside at night.

There is a system that separates the exhaust gasses from the water discharge, after it has been mixed and passes through the muffler. The water is then discharged silently under water through one exit, and the gasses are discharged dry and muffled, above the waterline. This is a much quieter system and is used, among other places, on many larger Beneteaus and Jeanneaus. For your application, you might give a lot of consideration to installing one of these on the gen set, as it will make you a much more popular neighbor!

Billgow, where in San Carlos are you thinking of keeping your boat? I don't know if the hydraulic trailer used by the dry storage at Marina Seca can handle the beam. Marina San Carlos does have some end-ties that you would fit in. Marina Real does to, but that place has almost come apart in a few hurricanes. Will you be driving from Arizona or California? I am wondering if some of the Baja options might be more appropriate. Are you planning to be on the boat all the time, or will you just visit it? The best time for the Sea is the April to June period, and the October/November period. April to June is delightful for air temperature, but the water warms more slowly. Sometime in late September, the first Northerly will blow. After it turns over the water, the searing heat of the summer is broken. Not that it is not warm for a couple more months, it is. But the edge is gone. However, the water remains delighfully warm longer than the air, so many of us actually preferred that time to the late spring. I spent many a summer in the Sea, and don't mind heat too much, but it does get REALLY hot! Water and air, both. With regard to wind, it has always seemed to me that I sailed a lot down near La Paz, not much up near Loreto, but quite a bit up north, past Santa Rosalia. That is good, because it is not easy to find fuel up there. The popular weather guru of that area, Don Sanderson "aka Don on Summer Passage" needs to be taken with a small grain of salt. He tries to be much more precise than is possible, and, in my opinion, is something of an alarmist. Far too many people hesitate to take even the shortest trips because he warns of something that doesn't matter or doesn't happen. He has a huge following, though, so in the interest of harmony, you might keep that opinion to yourself! Listen to him, he is useful, but filter it.

The Leopard 45/47 loves the trade winds and handles heavy winds without difficulty. But, I think it is underrated in light winds. As I have mentioned, Jet Stream goes pretty well under ten knots. Yes, we go slowly for us, maybe 3-6 knots, depending upon the wind strength, but no one else is going any faster! I always used to sail much more than most other cruisers, but that was because I had a boat that sailed well, and I enjoyed sailing, even if it was a good bit less than hull speed. I think your Leopard may just surprise you. Fuel consumption on Jet Stream is around 1.2 to 1.35 gph when we are at cruising revs, which is 2600 to 3000 rpm on the Yanmar 4JH3E. In flat water, we will do 7 knots somewhere in the 2700-2850 rpm range. In my opinion, the Max Props that you will find on an ex-crewed 45 are set at the wrong pitch. My surveyor confirmed that, as the engines could not come anywhere near the rated speed. This has been true of every Max Proped Leopard I know of. When I changed the pitch by one setting, all was good. If you have the Moorings pitch, speed and fuel consumption for a given rpm will, of course be different. Our typical cruising rpm with one engine is around 2850, and with two engines is around 2650. Higher than those numbers does not get you much other than increased fuel consumption, unless you are going into a big wind.

A good light air sail would be excellent to have. I agree that a screecher on a roller would be nice, but I have never quite figured out where I would attach the tack. Maybe someone else has worked this out. We have a more conventional asymetric in a sock, from Doyle. But its utility is more directional (we can sail deeper angles downwind) than governed by wind speed, other than in really light air.

I just recommended that ex-crewed boat in Baja to another friend who is looking for a Leopard. On paper, it looks good, and an ex-crewed boat has lots of nice touches. Some of these, like the gen set and A/C, became standard on the 47. If this 45 is really nice, you might want to give it a look.....and it might not be that overpriced! It does have Max Props, I think.

With regard to speed, as I have said, it seems like the 47 should be a bit faster. I sometimes think I would like to add a foot or so to Jet Stream...easily done. However, I am not sure there really is a significant speed difference. Most of the Moorings crews that sailed both boats felt that in certain conditions one was faster, and in others the other was faster. These are the same crews that feel that the 47 was more lightly built. Perhaps the boats they sailed actually were (I am not convinced), and if they were, that may have affected the speed differences in different wind and sea conditions. I cannot really say, other than that I don't think the differences in either case are not very large. I have captained, for the Moorings, two different crewed 47's and was really curious to see if there was a difference to what I am used to on Jet Stream. Although we did do one startlingly fast reach from Virgin Gorda to Anagada, which was a real eye-opener, during the rest of the four weeks I was on this gig I could not see any difference. And Jet Stream has never been left in the dust by a 47 for the four years I have had her. But, and it is a BIG but, don't forget that we have the feathering Max Props. These were standard on all the crewed 45's and 47's, but the Moorings eventually took them off their boats, feeling them to be a maintenance headache. They are, in fact, a bit fiddly, but I always come back to them when I try to analyze why we do so well. So, maybe the answer is that a 45 with Max Props can take the measure of a 47 with fixed props, when it otherwise could not. I would love to tee it up against a well sailed (with good sails) 47 with Max Props, just to find out the answer. I would not be surprised if such a 47 were faster than us (you would think it would be), but we have yet to meet that animal. Shawnbush, you wouldn't happen to have feathering props, would you? What do you think? How is your light air performance? I think our Max Props help us here, as well.

Final thought for Billgow: if you decide to seriously look at that Baja Leopard, you may find it worthwhile to fly one of the several extremely competent BVI surveyors out to look at it. None of the surveyors I ever met in Baja (all Canadian, Kwi, American or British) impressed me nearly as much as these guys do, and they REALLY know their Leopards. There is a huge market here in the BVI for buying and selling used charterboats, so these guys are in a very competitive and demanding business, and it shows in their skill level. Best of luck, in any case.

[yeloya]

I have sailed with most of FP range and they all differ from each other quite a bit. So one cannot generalise the speed of FP. Ligth winds: Belize and even Athena are quite fast, the worst being (in the order) Venezia' Bahia and Orana. Salina should be somewhere in the middle. Above 25 knts true, these light air performers need to be reefed pretty soon. In medium strong winds, Orana & Salina would sail safer and equally faster if not faster.
Pointing and ease of tacking is exceptonally good in Belize (the rest is just mediocre, Orana being the worst) but as I said above 25 knts' you feel much more safe and comfortable in Orana or Salina. Actually you can draw these results by checking their specs. and here is nothing contradicting.
I dont know others but I can tell that the polars of FP s are pretty realistic too.

Yeloya

[shawnbush12]

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

IJet Stream has never been left in the dust by a 47 for the four years I have had her. But, and it is a BIG but, don't forget that we have the feathering Max Props. These were standard on all the crewed 45's and 47's, but the Moorings eventually took them off their boats, feeling them to be a maintenance headache. They are, in fact, a bit fiddly, but I always come back to them when I try to analyze why we do so well. So, maybe the answer is that a 45 with Max Props can take the measure of a 47 with fixed props, when it otherwise could not. I would love to tee it up against a well sailed (with good sails) 47 with Max Props, just to find out the answer. I would not be surprised if such a 47 were faster than us (you would think it would be), but we have yet to meet that animal. Shawnbush, you wouldn't happen to have feathering props, would you? What do you think? How is your light air performance? I think our Max Props help us here, as well.

I do not have feathering props but thought about it, trying to determine how much it will really add to speed. As you mentioned they can be a maintenance item, but how much of one have you seen? Do you have to dive the props often and clean them to keep them folding?

In light air she still moves OK, we typically throw up the Asym and move well then.

I have not been to BVI and I have access to a place in Little Dix Bay, how is the area?

[billgow]

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

I totally agree that the A/C at night is no problem.... There is a system that separates the exhaust gasses from the water discharge....This is a much quieter system !

Thanks for both of these responses. I've made a note to look into this system. I see no need to ruin anyone's experience on the water.

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

where in San Carlos are you thinking of keeping your boat?

Marina Real hopefully. If not there Guaymas has room. I know they can haul it out in Guaymas but not in the marinas in San Carlos.

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

Will you be driving from Arizona or California?

Arizona. From Nogales, it's a great 4 lane highway, ~5 hours by car.

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

Are you planning to be on the boat all the time, or will you just visit it?

For the first couple years, just visit. Then I want to move onto it full time and visit our home in Arizona every now and then. When I get to that point, it won't be long till I won't need a long term marina. We still have one in the nest, but not for much longer.

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

The best time for the Sea

My schedule will be set by the fishing. Sometime around April/May I want to have the boat in the water in the San Carlos area. The fishing picks up as warmer water flows north beginning in June/July and heats up through September/October when I'll want to head south. November on the western side of Baja is the "pile up" west of Magdalena Bay. I'd like to make this my final Baja/SOC run for the year and head down to PV for the rest of the winter. It's actually cheaper to fly into Puerto Vallarta from Phoenix than it is to fly into Guaymas.

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

A good light air sail would be excellent to have. I agree that a screecher on a roller would be nice, but I have never quite figured out where I would attach the tack. Maybe someone else has worked this out. We have a more conventional asymetric in a sock, from Doyle. But its utility is more directional (we can sail deeper angles downwind) than governed by wind speed, other than in really light air.

A screecher has been recommended to me by a couple other cat drivers. My rep at Moorings is telling me he thinks an asymmetric is a better choice. I don't think he wants to see me add a bowsprit.

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

I just recommended that ex-crewed boat in Baja to another friend

It's a little premature for me at this point so I'm not going to look at it.

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

the feathering Max Props

How are they at reversing with a heavy hand?

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

you may find it worthwhile to fly one of the several extremely competent BVI surveyors out to look at it.

I intend to have every inch of the boat I buy checked out by a first class surveyor, no matter where it is.

The way I see it now, I'll probably buy out of Tortola or BVI because there are more choices. I'm going to have a lot of mods done to the boat and I'd prefer to have these done at Birdsall in West Palm Beach, FL than in Mexico. I've allowed one year from the day I make my decision and drop the boat off in Florida to the day I finally tie it up in San Carlos. I'm not knocking the talent in Mexico but getting parts is still a nightmare.

[Erikte]

Tim Schaaf - Thanks for the long and through explanations and information and for your time.

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

A couple more thoughts.

It should come as small surprise that the lowball boats and the high priced ones usually come out to have very appropriate values. The lowballs almost always have a formidable to-do list, and most of the high priced ones (I know of one very notable exception, recently) are beautifully equipped and really are ready to sail away. So, beware about throwing around comments about comparative prices.....you really DO get what you pay for, in most cases, and there are enough Leopards on the market to keep the playing field pretty level. But, unless you are a boatwright, or at least a very eager do-it-yourself tinkerer with plenty of time, be prepared to spend quite a bit to get that lowballer up to snuff. Really!

I am will not be ready to bay a boat before spring/summer 2009.

But in todays marked, what do you personally think is the right price for a Leopard 45 and 47, if one consider it ready to go (or fixed to that state), does this depend much on what year model it is also??? (I don´t know if this is a wrong ting to ask if so ignore the question)....

Since you live in BVI is it possible to hire you to have a look when time comes?

And last since you do crewed charter can you PM me your price list for charter from march 2009 to june 2009 would love to try before deciding to bay one... And would love to go with a experienced Leopard crew...

[freetime]

Erikte:

Do you have to pay V.A.T or any other costs, when you import a boat to Norway?
If i buy a boat from US and import it to sweden i had to pay 25% v.a.t on price of the boat and price on insurance of transportation of the boat to sweden...

[Nordic cat]

Originally Posted by freetime

Erikte:

Do you have to pay V.A.T or any other costs, when you import a boat to Norway?
If i buy a boat from US and import it to sweden i had to pay 25% v.a.t on price of the boat and price on insurance of transportation of the boat to sweden...

That may be why there are so many boats imported into Germany. they stay there for 3 months, and document that they have sailed at least 200 miles.

They can then be freely moved across EU borders as used boats, and presto you save 6% on tha VAT

Check out the harbours in the Flensburg area, probably at least 20-40 foreign boats doing this at any given time.

cheers

Alan

[Erikte]

Hi freetime:

Yes I have to pay 25 % V.A.T. (or MVA as it is called here). And we also have a cost (tax) pr. horse power (approx. 28 USD pr. HK) on the engines (and they also have to meet EU norms for emissions). That is even if i bay it from Europe or Sweden for that matter (we (Norway) are not a member of the European Union). And also the cost of sailing it to Norway yes, but that will be an adventure and not a cost as per say.

If I how ever put it out for charter (some time of the year) or have is as a company, both the V.A.T. (or MVA) and the tax on the HK is waved (or payed back).

Do you have something similar in Sweden or is it free if you import a boat from within the EU??