Leopard 40 turnover...

[Jebtrois]

Forgive the double entendre clickbait. We are writing with a truly first world problem. Like most people here, we have researched ourselves to death on what we think is the boat for us. At this point we really like the new design Leopard 40. We have gone to see about 5 over the past year. All of them have been model year 2017 or 2018 boats. Being onboard has validated, for us, that we want one. However, we were discussing making an offer yesterday and were struck by the following: every one of these boats was less than 18 months old and we would have been the second and/or third owner.

The transaction costs of buying and selling boats at the +/-$500k price point are not inconsequential. So we are interested to know from those who have been around boats for a while if there is anything we are missing in this phenomenon? Is there a latent issue with the Leopard 40 in particular? Is this common among Cats of this size...ie do people ‘think’ it will be enough and it just isn’t? The common story among them all is the whole “bought a boat, tried it and significant other didn’t like it...or change of life plans yada yada”. Basically the last half dozen, otherwise new boats, that have come to market have sold more than once and this seems odd. Does anyone have insight? Thanks, JEB

[Sailmonkey]

I think a lot of new boats of this size/market appeal are bought as first boats by people who like the idea, but then find out they don’t like the reality.

I see this phenomenon all the time here, new boats where interest wanes within a few months.

[Sand crab]

There was a thread here recently in which a long time member, an avid sailor, really didn't like this boat. He said he thought the cockpit up front made the boat a very poor performer. Apparently the wind got caught in there and made the boat twitchy.

[Gin-N-Sonic]

Originally Posted by Jebtrois

Forgive the double entendre clickbait. We are writing with a truly first world problem. Like most people here, we have researched ourselves to death on what we think is the boat for us. At this point we really like the new design Leopard 40. We have gone to see about 5 over the past year. All of them have been model year 2017 or 2018 boats. Being onboard has validated, for us, that we want one. However, we were discussing making an offer yesterday and were struck by the following: every one of these boats was less than 18 months old and we would have been the second and/or third owner.

The transaction costs of buying and selling boats at the +/-$500k price point are not inconsequential. So we are interested to know from those who have been around boats for a while if there is anything we are missing in this phenomenon? Is there a latent issue with the Leopard 40 in particular? Is this common among Cats of this size...ie do people ‘think’ it will be enough and it just isn’t? The common story among them all is the whole “bought a boat, tried it and significant other didn’t like it...or change of life plans yada yada”. Basically the last half dozen, otherwise new boats, that have come to market have sold more than once and this seems odd. Does anyone have insight? Thanks, JEB

I believe I may be able to shed some light on this. 2018 was a major changeover year for the Leopard 40.

The rear cabins got bigger, little things that added up to big things got ironed out. 2018 and later models we're also lit better and storage got better sorted, it's really a lot less art deco museum and more updated and functional.

Also, design. Let's talk about that "cab forward design" it is not yielding you any more space. You have that stupid front cockpit area, which really has no business existing on a 40 foot catamaran, that space could have been used for the inside, where, you know most people would be during passage-making. I really think that they tried to do too much with too little boat. It's almost more of a charter toy.

Now, another thing, the Leopard 40 has been, what I've found to be amongst the hardest things to traverse. Try taking a brisk walk across the front deck, yes trampoline to toe crusher, the other way around, you really have to be aware that you next step is going to be much lower and on a trampoline, or you will spill your drink. This is just personal findings.

Funny thing is, I got to work on 2 Leopards over 2 years, both owners hated their interiors. I learned to curve ply and use Nidacore when I got to help on those boats.

On a scale of "Meh" to "At Last" the Leopard 40 scores a solid "Eh".

Their design philosophy works much better on their bigger hulls.

[Gin-N-Sonic]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

There was a thread here recently in which a long time member, an avid sailor, really didn't like this boat. He said he thought the cockpit up front made the boat a very poor performer. Apparently the wind got caught in there and made the boat twitchy.

Aerodynamically speaking, yes, it's a huge intake with no flow and all it's going to do is act like an air brake, especially if you point high.

[Sand crab]

Here's that post.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2241710

[senormechanico]

We have seen the charter cat in question several times up in Desolation Sound and surrounding areas.

It's being motored when everyone else is sailing.

Only one time did we see it under sail, and that was spinnaker only under light air conditions.


Even then, it was only for a short time before they started the iron wind.

[Saleen411]

Originally Posted by Gin-N-Sonic

Also, design. Let's talk about that "cab forward design" it is not yielding you any more space. You have that stupid front cockpit area, which really has no business existing on a 40 foot catamaran, that space could have been used for the inside, where, you know most people would be during passage-making. I really think that they tried to do too much with too little boat. It's almost more of a charter toy.

Now, another thing, the Leopard 40 has been, what I've found to be amongst the hardest things to traverse. Try taking a brisk walk across the front deck, yes trampoline to toe crusher, the other way around, you really have to be aware that you next step is going to be much lower and on a trampoline, or you will spill your drink. This is just personal findings.


Their design philosophy works much better on their bigger hulls.

We've chartered Leopards before... tried a Leopard 44 last October...just the 2 of us and we really liked it. However, I agree about the front porch....we loved the front door but not the porch, though it was a good place to temporarily store our fenders.

At first I thought we would be spending more time in the front porch, but we really didn't feel comfortable there......too confining. When we wanted to be up front we always hung out on the tramp.

Speaking of tramps.....we've sailed a FP Lipari and the tramps were REALLY uncomfortable....huge openings. The Leopards had MUCH more comfortable, easy to walk on tramps.

Will be chartering a Leopard 40 in a couple of months, just to get more of a comparison. No question, so far we prefer the L44 and probably would really like the L45.

[Gin-N-Sonic]

Originally Posted by Saleen411

We've chartered Leopards before... tried a Leopard 44 last October...just the 2 of us and we really liked it. However, I agree about the front porch....we loved the front door but not the porch, though it was a good place to temporarily store our fenders.

At first I thought we would be spending more time in the front porch, but we really didn't feel comfortable there......too confining. When we wanted to be up front we always hung out on the tramp.

Speaking of tramps.....we've sailed a FP Lipari and the tramps were REALLY uncomfortable....huge openings. The Leopards had MUCH more comfortable, easy to walk on tramps.

Will be chartering a Leopard 40 in a couple of months, just to get more of a comparison. No question, so far we prefer the L44 and probably would really like the L45.

Honestly, the L44 and L45 were quite thoughtfully designed, and quite stout vessels too.

However, where this current design philosophy of Leopards with the whole cab forward design TRULY and I TRULY shines is the 50s, I mean GAH! What an age we live in where not only do we have literal floating homes that can sail but also the refinement of such a thing. I've noticed that they have gone over and wrenched out every last bit of storage and living space out of that hull. Truly we have arrived at the age of wonders.

With the 40, you'll notice that at first, entering from the rear cockpit, it comes across a little like the 44, but as soon as you get to the salon, it hits you where they took the space for the front. If you didn't like the front before, you may not like it on the 40. I think it would have been better to basically give it a full salon with a door and basically kept that deck flat. I always wondered, a broken foresail halyard underway would be a bit of a sportive event on that deck.

Completely agree with you regarding the tramps too. The one on the Lipari are sad, both in quality and look.

[TA Adventures]

I own a 2016 L40 and find none of the stuff indicated in these replies are an issue. I personally think the L 40 is a boat many people buy for an sabbatical, specific thing to do, or as an entry from mon to cat. My boat was purchased (new) as a one year sabbatical boat then sold to his pattern for a one year sabbatical then put on the market. I was looking for this size as I came from mon to cat. As far as performance I find the boat sails well the very small walk out space in the front is a none issue and the flat area up front is great for lounging with chairs, pillow, etc. We have traveled in very large sea (3 to 4 m) nose on and beam on in the Gulf Stream and the boat performed well much better than a mon in like conditions. Naturally she will not point up like a mon but I can effectively sail in the high 40’s apparent and do ok. Keep in mind on our mon I could do well much higher but the heel was 15 to 20 degrees. But there is always someone who has something to say so good luck.

[Jebtrois]

Thanks you everyone for your feedback!

[Snore]

My experience has been monohulls at that price point are owned by sailors who love the design and will sail it for many years.

Catamarans either go into charter, or are privately owned by individuals with a plan- sail the islands, circumnavigate, etc.. When they compete their plan, they sell the boat. A subset of this population buy a 40, only to discover that the 44 or 50 offers something they want. So the 40 gets sold, often at a good price, and they sail off in the bigger boat. First world solution to a first world problem.

If buying used, be sure to have a thorough survey done. It is possible to mess-up a boat in 18 months. Trust me on that one. To avoid that find a competent delivery captain and have him along to mentor you for a longish trip. Why a delivery guy? Most good ones have solid blue water background and will show you how to run a cat safely and efficiently.

[billknny]

We have been docked next to a catamaran dealer's (all new boats) docks before and during the boats show. Watching and listening to potential (and actual) customers swam over the boats.

Very, very few of them have any significant sailing or cruising experience. Most of them seem to sort of know that the pointy end of the boat goes in front, and are far more impressed with the interior decorating than the things that make it a boat. Sometimes comically so.

I would expect that the shakeout of these owners would be very significant in the first year or two--no matter what the quality of the boat was. Very few of the people taking delivery of these boats would know a good sailing boat from a garbage barge.

In short, I wouldn't necessarily see rapid turnover of such boats as a serious red flag. It has more to do with the shiny new owners than the boats.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by billknny

We have been docked next to a catamaran dealer's (all new boats) docks before and during the boats show. Watching and listening to potential (and actual) customers swam over the boats.

Very, very few of them have any significant sailing or cruising experience. Most of them seem to sort of know that the pointy end of the boat goes in front, and are far more impressed with the interior decorating than the things that make it a boat. Sometimes comically so.

I would expect that the shakeout of these owners would be very significant in the first year or two--no matter what the quality of the boat was. Very few of the people taking delivery of these boats would know a good sailing boat from a garbage barge.

In short, I wouldn't necessarily see rapid turnover of such boats as a serious red flag. It has more to do with the shiny new owners than the boats.

I think this is a good observation. With no rancor, condo cats appeal to inexperienced folks with no sailing background, for they look more like the land dwelling that is familiar to them. And when reality sets in...

Jim

[theBigKahuna]

JEB,

my wife and I actually just bought a 2015 owners version in July. The point of buyers not realizing what they're getting into is a significant point. Both from a responsibility and maintenance standpoint these are important issues that not everyone has thought through.

Re: Leopard 40's. The 2015 is moderately different than the most recent, but very similar. We compared the Leopards against others in this size range and felt this was the best choice. Regarding size, while the 40 is kind of a 'intro' cat size, we've found it quite adequate. As our broker said, to upgrade to that 45 is going to be roughly $200K... is there something else you could do w/ that money... obvious answer is YES, unless you've got that $$$ to burn... 'er spend.