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Old 21-02-2017, 08:54   #46
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

I have a 2004 Leopard 42 with the ICW mast. with the antenna, your looking at 63ft. Cruising from FL to SC most of the bridge clearance was gaging at 63 ft. Not much room till crunch time. Is the water rising?
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Old 21-02-2017, 09:16   #47
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

I am not sure their sailing performance counts.

It is more about the space, the comforts, the ease of driving one. Think of a floating waterfront bungalow.

That something has a mast and sails does not imply they are there for a reason.

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Old 21-02-2017, 09:41   #48
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

It is, of course, your money and you can do with it what you please. But, having sailed one of the new L40's (yes, I know, considerably smaller, but of the same design family with many similar features) for two weeks, I make this suggestion: Before you plunk down $650K on one, spend quite a bit of time sailing it, in the way you intend. Do everything you would do when living aboard, including all the routine maintenance tasks and emergency drills.

We found the L40 to be very comfortable and great "living" while at anchor. Lots of great ideas in the accommodations end of things. It was a terrible sailing boat, though, and we concluded it would have been much better as a power cat with a couple of 75 hp engines. See more extended comments, here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2241710

Be sure and look at accessibility for the maintenance items. Doing daily engine checks for the L40 was a contortionist's dream and an older sailor's nightmare. Attached is a pic of the port side engine access -- yes, that's as wide as the hatch will open, and that's the steering arm right on top -- no way to get around it. Starboard side was the same. Imagine trying to clear a strainer or fuel filter in choppy seas, in the dark, while coming into port, because at some time or other, you will!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to bash the boat, I wanted to like it. Like a number of the cruising cats that have come out over the last 4 or 5 years, they are doing a great job on the accommodations, but at the cost of decent sailing qualities. You can't get around physics.

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Old 21-02-2017, 10:00   #49
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

This boat is definitely on our list of maybe's when we upgrade next year. It's a shame all the usual boring comments about cat owners are here again - " never leave the quay", "always motoring " etc ... it's getting a bit boring folks. As for the front facing cockpit being dangerous .. I just don't get it. The volume of this cockpit is approximately 2.6 m3, so if it completely filled up to the brim ( very unlikely ), it would add 2.6 tonnes to the weight of the boat for a few seconds. The design of all new boats have to pass stringent examination before being approved for production by people who know a lot more than anyone on here about boat design.
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Old 21-02-2017, 11:23   #50
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

Haywoods: I think you're off the mark here. Please go back and note that virtually all of us who are voicing skepticism are current or past cat owners, with many of us having owned multiple cats (Yeloya has four right now).
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Old 21-02-2017, 11:43   #51
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haywoods View Post
This boat is definitely on our list of maybe's when we upgrade next year. It's a shame all the usual boring comments yabout cat owners are here again - " never leave the quay", "always motoring " etc ... it's getting a bit boring folks. As for the front facing cockpit being dangerous .. I just don't get it. The volume of this cockpit is approximately 2.6 m3, so if it completely filled up to the brim ( very unlikely ), it would add 2.6 tonnes to the weight of the boat for a few seconds. The design of all new boats have to pass stringent examination before being approved for production by people who know a lot more than anyone on here about boat design.
Don't have anything bad to say but your idea that new boats have to pass "stringent"examination before being approved for construction is simply not supported by history. These are not aircraft designers your talking about they are yacht designers that have to deal with the push and pull of designing products at the lowest possible price set forth by the builders.
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Old 21-02-2017, 12:07   #52
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haywoods View Post
This boat is definitely on our list of maybe's when we upgrade next year. It's a shame all the usual boring comments about cat owners are here again - " never leave the quay", "always motoring " etc ... it's getting a bit boring folks. As for the front facing cockpit being dangerous .. I just don't get it. The volume of this cockpit is approximately 2.6 m3, so if it completely filled up to the brim ( very unlikely ), it would add 2.6 tonnes to the weight of the boat for a few seconds. The design of all new boats have to pass stringent examination before being approved for production by people who know a lot more than anyone on here about boat design.
The forum is meant to be a place where everybody shares their opinion. You may not like or may find "boring" some of them, but I don't undersgtand why this is supposed to be a shame.. You simply disregard the opinions that you don't like and you do whatever you like, who cares ?

Talking about the boats design, there is no doubt that naval architects knows better than us but unfortunately they have to follow the brief of the stake holders. The design office Simonis and Voogd is a well respected one but they have to do what the boss tells them to do. If they were allowed the design a cat without any restriction, I am pretty sure this boat would have look quite different. The boss tells you that the market is requiring a front cockpit, you as an architect you may tell yr reservations but after all if you don't do it, there will be many other design offices that would do. Same everywhere, if you go to Van Petegham and have enough money, he can design for you anything from slowest condos up to the record breaking cats and tris, even 145 ft catamaran with only 10 meter draft, because the owner wanted to anchor in front of Portofino's shollow waters...

Am I still boring ?

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Old 21-02-2017, 12:07   #53
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

Hey guys... I don't mind the criticism - I've got thick skin, but there always seems to be an underlying theme when discussing cats in general. Look at these clips from this thread alone :-
"with the sheltered waters a floating condo is luxury living"
"549grand..us...should have a site here for i .m rich and like to brag forum. ..."
"It is more about the space, the comforts, the ease of driving one. Think of a floating waterfront bungalow."

I just get a little fed up sometimes having to justify owning a cat !!

As for the design issue... there is a documentary on Sky at the moment about people building superyachts and the hoops they have to jump through to get their designs approved for safety before they are allowed to start building are incredible. Look at this quote from a manufacturer :-


The process of certification starts right away on the first day of design and it continues all the way through to launch as it is something that must be incorporated into every aspect of the boat. From the structural requirements to the type of fuel hose, thickness of the glass, right down to the size of the warning labels that must be displayed, any aspect of the design which impacts safety and seaworthiness is covered under the multitude of rules. We have two partners involved in this process. IMCI are the certifying agency that issues the certificate on behalf of ISO and perform the inspections of the boat. Morrelli & Melvin design the structure to meet the rules as well as incorporate countless design details to ensure that we conform. As part of the boat's certification process, an IMCI inspector comes to visit our yard 3 or 4 times during critical construction periods to inspect the quality of workmanship and highlight potential problem areas. There are 64 documents and 1000’s of pages of rules that must be conformed to and so regular inspections are vital. To support our application we have to supply 24 check lists, 45 drawings, 27 product data sheets, 6 test reports, 20 sets of supporting calculations, 100s of photos and 1 Owner’s Manual. The thousands of pages of documentation are carefully reviewed and considered along with the findings from the yard visits before certification is approved.
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Old 21-02-2017, 12:14   #54
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

And you believe that the typical high production yacht builders go by the same rules as those doing super yachts?
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Old 21-02-2017, 12:24   #55
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

I'm just a mono owner so take this with a pinch of salt, but part of an appeal of a cat to me was the shallow draft allowing you to do all kinds of fun gunkholing you can't do with a mono - but that cat draws more than my mono does!

I feel you'd be giving up one of the prime strengths of getting a catamaran to start with.
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Old 21-02-2017, 12:50   #56
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

It needs to be pointed out that specifications for charter cats and owner cats are quite different.
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Old 21-02-2017, 16:43   #57
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haywoods View Post
This boat is definitely on our list of maybe's when we upgrade next year. It's a shame all the usual boring comments about cat owners are here again - " never leave the quay", "always motoring " etc ... it's getting a bit boring folks. As for the front facing cockpit being dangerous .. I just don't get it. The volume of this cockpit is approximately 2.6 m3, so if it completely filled up to the brim ( very unlikely ), it would add 2.6 tonnes to the weight of the boat for a few seconds. The design of all new boats have to pass stringent examination before being approved for production by people who know a lot more than anyone on here about boat design.
If you look at the criticism on this particular thread its mainly coming from experienced cat owners (including leopard owners) so no its not the usual "boring" cat bashing. Ignoring it would be the shame I reckon.

The fact you "don't get" the problem with the cockpit says plenty about sailing experience in offshore conditions. Its where the weight is(forward), the fact that it's sudden, that there is already alot of weight forward necessitating another mitigation (the chines) and what sea state and boat movement will be like when it fills. Will the scuppers work quickly enough basically. Jack thinks they will others are not so certain.

No it's not a few seconds either. As I understand it leopard "invented" the standard for water clearance rate and then beat it. Like others say the designers have to work to a brief.
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Old 21-02-2017, 17:31   #58
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

I've got to chime in with Barra, here. It's not just the fact that the boat could be taking around 2.5 to 3 tons of water forward, "for a few seconds." If you are in the kind of sea conditions where you are taking a lot of green water on the foredeck, it very likely is not a one-wave-only event. It's 2.5 tons every 10 to 20 seconds, perhaps for hours. You want that stuff off of your boat as fast as possible, believe me!

When you look at the designs of catamarans where the design mission was fast, safe passage-making, you almost always see thick, aft-sloping salon windows with side decks designed to get rid of water, fast. Sure, Chris White's Atlantic series and the Gunboats are an exception, but they have huge scuppers and the cockpit is more of a center cockpit design rather than a forward cockpit.

Now, lots of Lagoon 440's, 500's, etc., as well as the Leopards and others have the forward "porches." Having sailed on a few of them, they are very nice in calm conditions. If that is all you ever will do and you expect to spend your cruising life without doing multi-day and week-long-plus ocean passages, then go ahead and enjoy. But, if you think you will be doing such passages, then be aware of the caution. You are intentionally choosing an increased risk. Most likely, you'll be fine and I hope you never encounter such conditions. But, I have, several times, and I was thankful to have a boat that put the water back where it belonged and didn't keep it where it didn't.

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Old 21-02-2017, 17:56   #59
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter View Post
I've got to chime in with Barra, here. It's not just the fact that the boat could be taking around 2.5 to 3 tons of water forward, "for a few seconds." If you are in the kind of sea conditions where you are taking a lot of green water on the foredeck, it very likely is not a one-wave-only event. It's 2.5 tons every 10 to 20 seconds, perhaps for hours. You want that stuff off of your boat as fast as possible, believe me!

When you look at the designs of catamarans where the design mission was fast, safe passage-making, you almost always see thick, aft-sloping salon windows with side decks designed to get rid of water, fast. Sure, Chris White's Atlantic series and the Gunboats are an exception, but they have huge scuppers and the cockpit is more of a center cockpit design rather than a forward cockpit.

Now, lots of Lagoon 440's, 500's, etc., as well as the Leopards and others have the forward "porches." Having sailed on a few of them, they are very nice in calm conditions. If that is all you ever will do and you expect to spend your cruising life without doing multi-day and week-long-plus ocean passages, then go ahead and enjoy. But, if you think you will be doing such passages, then be aware of the caution. You are intentionally c
hoosing an increased risk. Most likely, you'll be fine and I hope you never encounter such conditions. But, I have, several times, and I was thankful to have a boat that put the water back where it belonged and didn't keep it where it didn't.

ID
Here's a bit more information on the front porch and the cover one can use....

http://www.my-seychelles.net/files/Leopard44Cockpit.pdf
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Old 21-02-2017, 19:42   #60
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Re: I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

With the experience I made with certification, cat of the year, made me losing all faith about. My Experience in short: the catamaran was about four metric tons heavier than agreed in the building description, to be in the rules the yard had to built in 3,5 m3 of foam. As they the decided to use polyurethane foam that was the drop who the barrel to overflow and I refused acceptence. (My list of complaints had about 10 pages). I had already payd 90%, but I received my money back in full, as I was asking for bankers guarantee when ordering.

I had to agree to not name the manufacturer but the lesson learned was finally well spent time.

With my later bought Visiona 40 I had two very happy circumnavigations, a welll built catamaran, no major problem even when sailing the Falkalnd Islands an the southern Spit of South America, the Indian Ocean and the East Coast of South Africa.

In my Pilot book was written that to sail from South Africa to Brazil is one of the best sailing in the world, I read that but was sceptical, but the Author was more than right.

So far: look twice, and have all the details and agreements meticulously in written. And a bankers guarantee if the seller is asking part payments corresponding to the state of the building process can save your plans.

Good luck
James
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