I am officially smitten by the New Leopard 45!

[PaulinOz]

Originally Posted by sheldon957

Definitely not rich, but I have worked my ass off through the last 45 years. 50-60 hour workweeks were the norm. We have not lived high on the hog, and have managed to pay off all debt during this time.

I am currently driving a 1995 toyota and my wife drives a 2006. We did not squander money like so many we see. New car every 2-3 years, new house every 5 years etc...

We have been working towards our retirement goals a long time. This is one of them.

Also, that is why I am talking to several people through PM's that may want to partner up.

Sheldon good luck with working towards our retirement goals.

I have worked out the easiest way to become one of the lucky people in this world, in other peoples eyes, is to just work your bum off towards your own goals.

Then you get accused of being lucky by those that have not and are not.

[Inexorable]

Congrats on the new Leopard 45! That's the boat at the top of my list when I go to purchase at the next boat show">Miami Boat Show. Spent a lot of time on it this past weekend and personally don't see many negatives. I noticed you are getting a 62' mast? I didn't see that on the options list and was told by one of the Leopard reps it wasn't possible. Were they wrong, or is the mast being lowered after market?

[wkstar]

----I noticed you are getting a 62' mast? I didn't see that on the options list and was told by one of the Leopard reps it wasn't possible. Were they wrong, or is the mast being lowered after market?-----
It's mentioned in one of the Leopard 45youtube video's that you can get the shorter mast
4:57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMy7krlgrdU

[DistantSailor]

Originally Posted by Barra

The forward facing cockpit is also a dealbreaker for me. It isnt something I would feel at all comfortable in offshore and lives have already been lost on the 44 with same design...

Who died? When? What boat? Was it actually attributed to the Leopard's forward cockpit?

[Four Coconuts]

I was at the Miami show, too, having flown down from NH to look for our next cat which we will hopefully purchase in two years. We sold our 2000 Leopard 45 7 months ago. I was not nearly as impressed with the new 45 as you were. First, the boat is too heavy and doesn't have sufficient buoyancy in the bows to handle the weight without serious pounding if you're going offshore. Evidence? It weighs 8,000 lbs more than my old Leopard 45 and has narrower hulls. Look at the video of the new boat at minute 1:30, they are sailing in relatively benign waters and yet the bows are burying 18" above waterline, requiring almost all the good bridgedeck clearance they built in. I've also got to say it's underpowered compared to the old boat (sorry to keep comparing, but by experience it's the best comparison I have). Again, we were 8,000 lbs lighter (lightship), yet our mast was 71'. How's a 62' mast going to power a 32,000 lb boat which which will be 36,000 once you load it up? And, what will the bows look like then going through the waves?

[Four Coconuts]

Here is the video link I was referring to:

Leopard 45 | Leopard Catamarans US

This boat may even be going downwind/downwave. Now, imagine adding 4,000 lbs of fuel, water, cruising gear and provisions. Then turn it around so it's going to windward and add a 4-6' sea. As they said back during the Apollo space flights "Houston, we have a problem here...."

[Four Coconuts]

If they add 42" more to the bows I'll buy one. We can call it the L45x

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Barra

The forward facing cockpit is also a dealbreaker for me. It isnt something I would feel at all comfortable in offshore and lives have already been lost on the 44 with same design.

I have done passages on both the 44 (Cape Town to Brazil) and the 48 (BVI to Panama). I have no concerns about the ability of the forward cockpit to drain. The scuppers were huge.

The Sunsail 44 capsized, why we do not know. It is the only one of which I am aware.

[Big Macca]

Sailing around the southern parts of Australia in a Mk 1 Leopard 45 I'd love a bit more bridgedeck clearance, but I'm dubious about the new model's forward cockpit and the sharp edges on the interior woodwork. It's also bulky, and the windage would be interesting to deal with in tight spaces. But it obviously wasn't designed with the high latitudes in mind, and in the tropics she'd be gorgeous.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by DistantSailor

Who died? When? What boat? Was it actually attributed to the Leopard's forward cockpit?

The 44 was new on delivery and was lost in the Indian ocean. All delivery crew were lost so we will never know what the true cause was.

What we can say is these designs add an extra level of risk in survival conditions that otherwise would not be the case via the combination of adding extra weight forward (the 45 even puts the liquids up there too!), a very small tramp through which waves can pass and a large bucket to collect them, potentially adding even more sudden forward weight at a dangerous time.

Like i said not a problem for coastal passages but for many that want to cross oceans thats a deal breaker.

[aclmck]

Originally Posted by Barra

The 44 was new on delivery and was lost in the Indian ocean. All delivery crew were lost so we will never know what the true cause was.

What we can say is these designs add an extra level of risk in survival conditions that otherwise would not be the case via the combination of adding extra weight forward (the 45 even puts the liquids up there too!), a very small tramp through which waves can pass and a large bucket to collect them, potentially adding even more sudden forward weight at a dangerous time.

Like i said not a problem for coastal passages but for many that want to cross oceans thats a deal breaker.

so i take it a larger lagoon with the forward lounge is off your list too then?

both of these manufacturers have tested and know that the water sheds out of these areas quickly, delivery skippers have delivered both brands with zero issues in this area of the boat and both with waves going over the boat so i don't understand why this is still an issue????

what we can say about the 44 that flipped is it was sailed into an on coming cyclone or at least very near to it, i agree it was a terrible loss of life. any boat in those conditions would suffer and we can't say for sure what exactly happened.

[aclmck]

Originally Posted by PaulinOz

Sheldon good luck with working towards our retirement goals.

I have worked out the easiest way to become one of the lucky people in this world, in other peoples eyes, is to just work your bum off towards your own goals.

Then you get accused of being lucky by those that have not and are not.

Paul i have a saying "the harder i work the luckier i get" i often quote it to the smart ar**s of this world when they have a go at me.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by aclmck

so i take it a larger lagoon with the forward lounge is off your list too then?

both of these manufacturers have tested and know that the water sheds out of these areas quickly, delivery skippers have delivered both brands with zero issues in this area of the boat and both with waves going over the boat so i don't understand why this is still an issue????

what we can say about the 44 that flipped is it was sailed into an on coming cyclone or at least very near to it, i agree it was a terrible loss of life. any boat in those conditions would suffer and we can't say for sure what exactly happened.

Its clearly not zero issues on delivery- a crew died in a 44. Yes leopard would like to blame the skipper but their motivations in doing so are pretty obvious to say the very least.

Yes the lagoons with this feature are a concern as well as the solid foredeck Bali's but on these new leopards they are definitely upping the ante so to speak.

You dont understand why its still an issue? Really? Its an issue because they make the boats potentially less seaworthy in extreme conditions. Have you seen some properly heavy weather in a cat at all?

Any naval architect will confirm the risk is increased. That much is obvious. Its just that they have a work around with scuppers to drain the water. If the scuppers didnt work effectively enough the boat is in serious trouble with all that weight trapped forward (or entering through the saloon doors).I think the standard that has been accepted is something like 40 seconds to drain. Clearly in the wrong conditions the waves could overwhelm that drain rate.

You can chose to put your faith in either the "it'll never happen to me" camp or in the scuppers always being fast enough but equally I can choose not to right?

That said I would happily charter one in a cruising destination and very much enjoy the forward cockpit at anchor. But for ocean passage making most other cats including earlier leopards are much better designed.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Barra

Its clearly not zero issues on delivery- a crew died in a 44. Yes leopard would like to blame the skipper but their motivations in doing so are pretty obvious to say the very least.

Yes the lagoons with this feature are a concern as well as the solid foredeck Bali's but on these new leopards they are definitely upping the ante so to speak.

You dont understand why its still an issue? Really? Its an issue because they make the boats potentially less seaworthy in extreme conditions. Have you seen some properly heavy weather in a cat at all?

Any naval architect will confirm the risk is increased. That much is obvious. Its just that they have a work around with scuppers to drain the water. If the scuppers didnt work effectively enough the boat is in serious trouble with all that weight trapped forward (or entering through the saloon doors).I think the standard that has been accepted is something like 40 seconds to drain. Clearly in the wrong conditions the waves could overwhelm that drain rate.

You can chose to put your faith in either the "it'll never happen to me" camp or in the scuppers always being fast enough but equally I can choose not to right?

That said I would happily charter one in a cruising destination and very much enjoy the forward cockpit at anchor. But for ocean passage making most other cats including earlier leopards are much better designed.

I fully agree with Barra regarding the risks associated with the forward cockpit, but more with the solid foredeck.. (The pics show that L45 has no real solid foredeck like the Bali but definately a way too short opening)
Having sailed the Atlantic twice, you will certainly agree with me when you surf down the huge waves at 25 kts of speed .. If on top the hulls are relatively slim and less buoyant, at this speed the nose will tend to dive and the short solid foredeck will dig under the water which will further push down the nose of the boat to the water; a recipy to disaster..

If the bridge deck clearance on the other hand is what I see on the pics and video, one would have a lot of fun with this this solid foredeck and cockpit, not so much on the Ocean where you sail almost always downwind but particularly in the very short and steepy waves of the Med..

Having said that, these boats are great when anchored or in benign waters. I have shortly sailed a 44 ft 2 years ago and she was sailing pretty well, say close to Helia..
The new 45 is roughly 6 inches longer and weights almost 3-4 tons more than L 44 and Helia.. I am sure there will be a lot of customer for the new L45, particularly on the charter, but not for me , thank you..

Cheers

Yeloya

[hsi88]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

I took the "Virtual Tour". All those square countertop corners in the saloon are gut punchers in any kind of sea ! OUCH !!

I thought that same thing looking at the gallery of pics. Being a little clumsy, I don't think I would survive any rough seas in that boat. Would eventually end up with major head trauma. But I guess most Leopards will end up as party boats tied to the dock or cruising the harbor on pretty days, so guess it doesn't really matter.

Looking at the Leopard 43 in the Gone with the Wynns videos, this boat seems a lot more sailor friendly. Nice round corners, well protected helm that is part of the outer "saloon" area so the captain can stay connected to his passengers. Shallow draft. To me, about as good as a cat of that size gets. But it would seem they no longer make anything related to that model.

The new Leopards all seem to have the mini-flybridge which has better visibility, but seems exposed at the same time and is up and away from the passengers sitting below. I guess they know what they are doing. it would seem the boat certainly has drawing power as some early boat show responses have shown. People have their check books out, so it must be really nice in person.