Risk of not checking in, new country / island

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

The main source and it is ten years old

Rules For Entering Australia - Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums

repeated on other sites

https://www.google.com/search?q=If+b...hrome&ie=UTF-8

nothing on new "Border Force" site so be worth an email for updated info.

Thank you and yes, Border Force might be a different beast!

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Think short handed and fatigued

Sounds more like poor planning than force majeure to me, and I suspect that most customs agents would see it that way also.


If you need to stop to rest, check in, anchor legally, and sleep to your heart's content.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Sounds more like poor planning than force majeure to me, and I suspect that most customs agents would see it that way also.

Perhaps quote the whole passage instead of cherry picking the one line you don't like.

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Even if it affects operational safety of the vessel?

Think short handed and fatigued
Plus waters strewn with fishtraps and poor charting making night time travel through territorial waters to nearest clearance port relatively unsafe.

If you need to stop to rest, check in, anchor legally, and sleep to your heart's content

.
As stated above, check in port is a couple of days away through waters strewn with fishtraps and poor charting making night time travel through territorial waters to nearest clearance port relatively unsafe.

[Mike OReilly]

I think the point is that while safety of crew and vessel always take precedence, the law (in most countries) is pretty clear. You must proceed to a port of entry directly, and you must not stop before hand, except in the above circumstances. Anchoring appears to be considered stopping in most jurisdictions.

Should you stop due to fatigue, a border officer will determine if this is justified. If you are short-handed crew (as I am), then it only seems prudent to take this fact into account when planning the entry.

Like I said, border folks are (mostly ) human. If you are reasonable, they likely will be as well. But there’s no guarantee. And in my personal example, it was clear the fatigue and unsafe waters reason, which seemed legit to me, was not.

[Simi 60]

Are unsafe waters in well charted Canada considered the same as notoriously poorly charted Indonesia, which is where I am talking about.?

Nearest clearance port being over 100 nm away from first land.
Do you really want to be dodging uncharted reef, unlit fads, unlit fishing boats, nets and dog knows what else in the dark?

[kantafig]

Risk of not checking in, new country / island

does that apply for 3rd world countries only or US is also included.

So, I would like to know your answer if someone in Kongo, Somalia, Venezuela, Columbia, el Salvador, Tajikistan, Kirgizstan etc. etc. ask same question regarding US

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Are unsafe waters in well charted Canada considered the same as notoriously poorly charted Indonesia, which is where I am talking about.?

Nearest clearance port being over 100 nm away from first land.
Do you really want to be dodging uncharted reef, unlit fads, unlit fishing boats, nets and dog knows what else in the dark?

Are you saying Indonesia does not operate under the same laws as the rest of the world in this regard? If so, then great. It’s an exception. But this thread isn’t about entering Indonesia. It’s about whether one can legally stop before clearing into a foreign nation. You can’t (except, apparently in Indonesia).

If you anchor before clearing in, you are risking legal ramifications. But if the choice is between legal problems and serious risk of harm to crew or vessel, then most people would choose the former. Still doesn’t change the reality of the legal situation. And you better hope you have one of those “human” officers.

[CF32907]

CaptVR here, I gave a bit of a blog earlier on the ramifications of stopping before clearing. Some others, played the ethics, good neighbor card. I totally agree with that aspect also, we as Americans have a hell of a reputation as ugly Americans, we do need to be on our best behaviour when abroad.

Now as far as clearing, anchoring, log books, check your own back yard. All need to see what Georgia is instituting January first. If you go over the Georgia line, you cannot anchor, you will notify them and go to an anchor area they say and PAY for anchoring by cell phone or computer. If you anchor without paying or anchor anywhere on the waterway without pre approval you can be arrested.
You must have a log book to show where you left from before going into Georgia waters, and you must have a logbook on your last pump out station for your holding tank. No provision is made for bad weather, break downs, lost, or any other reason for not making payment for a particular state anchorage. If that anchorage is full, or water depth not enough no provision is made for another location. They are not necessarily the same as anchorage areas that the Corp. Engineers marked anchorages on the charts. Evidently those marked by the Corp. will not be observed by Georgia's law enforcement.
Look up Georgia's new rules, it's scarrrry. How they trump the Federal anchorages on tidal waters is not right, but who's going to stop them, where is our interior secretary.
We need to start writing Washington, the ICW is Federal. CaptVR, Ret.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. It’s about whether one can legally stop before clearing into a foreign nation. You can’t (except, apparently in Indonesia).
.

Well, I did post information above where there was, may still be, grounds for anchoring prior to customs clearance in Australia.
Last updated 2019 on noonsite
https://www.noonsite.com/place/australia/formalities/


Not sure if you can in Indonesia or not.
What I do know is it is poor seamanship, dangerous and stupid to travel uncharted reef strewn areas in the dark which is what many here are suggesting must be done as one can't possibly anchor so as to traverse those waters safely during daylight hours.

[Jim Cate]

FWIW:

1. In the past we have requested (by VHF) permission to anchor for the night at the north end of Moreton Island (Queensland, Australia) before clearing into the country. Reason was poor visibility and heavy commercial traffic. Customs and AQIS both agreed, saying to hoist the Q flag, not leave the boat and proceed when it was light in the morning.

2. In New Caledonia, as of 4 years ago it was permitted to anchor for the night when entering via the Havanah passage from the east. Again, Q flag and no leaving the boat or other intercourse with persons or vessels. We have taken advantage of this several times with zero repercussion.

Other places are less forgiving, and flaunting the law is seriously bad practice when visiting such areas.

Jim

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Do you really want to be dodging uncharted reef, unlit fads, unlit fishing boats, nets and dog knows what else in the dark?

Hey! It's your boat. It's your choice. You don't need our permission to do whatever you want to do. Though I will say that if you put yourself in a position where you either have to dodge uncharted reefs at night, or anchor illegally, it still sounds to me more like poor planning than force majeure.

The original subject of this thread was anchoring overnight, and then moving on, without any intention of ever checking in -- specifically in the Caribbean. It's against the law. It's a dumb idea. And in the Caribbean, at least, there is a very good possibility that you will get caught if you try it. Other places, who knows? Not me.

You do what you want to do. I know what I am going to do.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Though I will say that if you put yourself in a position where you either have to dodge uncharted reefs at night, or anchor illegally, it still sounds to me more like poor planning than force majeure.

.

You need to get out more
Or not.
Vast tracts of the planet have areas with poor charting that you cant "Magic" yourself through.
You stay safe. (-;

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

FWIW:

1. In the past we have requested (by VHF) permission to anchor for the night at the north end of Moreton Island (Queensland, Australia) before clearing into the country. Reason was poor visibility and heavy commercial traffic. Customs and AQIS both agreed, saying to hoist the Q flag, not leave the boat and proceed when it was light in the morning.

2. In New Caledonia, as of 4 years ago it was permitted to anchor for the night when entering via the Havanah passage from the east. Again, Q flag and no leaving the boat or other intercourse with persons or vessels. We have taken advantage of this several times with zero repercussion.

Other places are less forgiving, and flaunting the law is seriously bad practice when visiting such areas.

Jim

Good to hear real life examples

Im guessing you never actually spoke to New Cal Customs on VHF?
When we were last there we couldn't even raise them on VHF, or Port Moselle Marina and had to come in and go to the marina office for a berth.
About 48 hours later customs came and saw us, no problems but pretty casual on island time.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Telemark43

Just remember, Napoleonic Code, the legal system used by the French and their Islands, has you "gulity until proven inocent", not the same as the British & USA legal systems.

Pure mythology.


Same presumption of innocence as we have, exists in almost all civil law jurisdictions, going back to Roman law, ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat.

In France, the 1789 (same year as our Constitution) Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, which is part of the French constitution, says: "Tout Homme est présumé innocent jusqu'à ce qu'il ait été déclaré coupable". Article IX.

[Dockhead]

Well, I've visited some places without checking in. Once or twice.


But I don't generally recommend it. It shows disrespect and can result in a whole heap of trouble if you get caught. Play by their rules; have your papers in order; sleep soundly at night.


I will tell one story, however.


I arrived in NE Greenland last year after sailing across part of the Arctic Ocean from Iceland. The East coast of Greenland is almost total wilderness; 5000 people live on a coastline as long as the Eastern Seaboard, and only a few hundred of them above the Arctic Circle (50 000 on the warmer West coast).


I did find the one settlement within hundreds of miles in either direction, and attempted to check in. I had all my crew's passports, and after asking around, tracked down the one Danish policeman, who looked at me, like, what do you want? I told him I wanted to check in, and he looked at me like I was wasting his time. Handed him the hand full of passports, which he took, looked at without opening them, and said, this looks ok, and handed them back. Then I asked about customs. He said, they won't be much interested in you. So I didn't check in there.



The only thing he really cared about was whether we had a gun on board. I said yes. He said, good, don't go anywhere without it.



True story.