Storm Anchor

[JPA Cate]

Just some thoughts, Jeb.

We have used the Y type of anchoring in storm strength winds. Our vessel is 46 ft, and 14 tonnes, so bigger than yours, but she does tend to dance around the anchor, as yours does. Our primary anchor is our storm anchor, a 60 lb. Manson Supreme, and it would take using a halyard to help get it up over the bow pulpit. It does fit on the bow roller. What we used with it is an old 20 lb HT Danforth, and it did stop our dragging in soft mud.

How we actually set the second anchor is to first get it out of the lazarette and bring it and most of its rode forward, wrapping the rode around and cleating it on the primary winch in the cockpit. Then motor off to port back to roughly where the primary anchor (all chain rode) is and let off the Danforth, off the port side of the bow. (Most people nowadays have a Fortress, but we have stuck with the Danforth.) Let go the second anchor, and let the wind blow you back, so you're lying to your primary rode, easing out the line for the 2nd anchor. Finally, take up all the slack from the 2nd anchor line, and take tension on it. That should set it. It will be that anchor you retrieve first after the storm has passed.

Obviously, at some point the wind can become too much for the situation, but if you have good shelter from trees or mangroves, the wind strength at your level will be less than the max strength of the storm.

About the "dancing"--it does mean that a sudden wind shift leaves you vulnerable to dragging. However, the "Y" mitigates that to some extent. A friend of ours limited his dancing by dropping a drogue off his bow, to just the depth of the anchorage, and found that it just about stopped it, it reduced the swing considerable. It is something you could try and see how it affects your boat. On that occasion, the wind was sustained 50's, gusts in the 70's.

We have never had the option of going ashore for a hurricane or a cyclone.

For what it's worth, although I have never tried it, I don't think it's a super idea to make your boat heavier for the storm. I don't think you can safely add enough to gain anything from the increase of inertia, and there's real risk of sinking a boat if you plug up the cockpit drains, you want all that rain to run off. It is small dinghies you may save by sinking them. You need a plan for your dinghy, too. (Take it home and leave it in the garage?)

The biggest deal is to reduce your wind resistance, because the force of the wind against the boat goes up as the square of the velocity which is why taking the headsails off makes such a difference, even though the foil is left up. So: both headsails removed, (assuming you have a staysail) and stowed below; mainsail removed, too. The battens can be stowed inside the boom if you take the aft end off so you can slide them in, or tied in a bundle and tied along the side deck, if they're too long to go below. All the weather cloths, and and anything else [like a Lifesling] above that can go below. Of course it depends on how much time you have to prepare, but if there's going to be flying tree limbs and bits of galvanized roof flying around, your wind instrument is really vulnerable, and it takes only a short time to unscrew and hide below. Even going to "string" (really light line) and sending your halyards aloft, with the string attached, will help some. Securing halyard tails on the deck behind dorades can sometimes be managed. Lines that go to the cockpit should be secured as best you can, keep them low, and if you have a cloth dodger, remove it, again, to reduce windage. Maybe Hudson could tell you the wind strengths he experienced up the rivers in your area. Friends who went up a mangrove creek in Fiji during a cyclone, left up their dodger, and no worries, they had only about 15 kn. at their masthead while it was over 50 above. Like I said, mangroves can provide a lot of protection, and we've experienced it from eucalypts, as well.

****

Depending on where you have picked, it would be a bad thing for the boat to get loose during the storm and damage something or be damaged itself.

Ann

[JebLostInSpace]

Thanks again all for the advice. Since the consensus was that my worries about getting a too-big anchor were mostly unimportant, and in any case much less important than the worry of dragging in a storm, I ordered the big 66 pound spade. And surprisingly, it can be made to fit on my bow roller! So I'll probably just end up using it as my primary now and keep it up there. Store the 45 pound Manson aft in the Laz, and feel better every night I'm on the hook

I also appreciate all the other hurricane alternative plans and advice. I do have a Fortress FX-23 that I might use in concert with the big Spade. I'll have to do some experimenting over the next few weekends to decide if I like that. Plus, I need to continue scouting my chosen river bends to make sure I like the holding & protection, and build up a list of good alternatives if I find my first choice or two are full or otherwise no good when a storm does come.

Sadly, no mangroves around here. Apparently they are the gold standard for hurricane protection

[CruiseN]

I'd still move what stows you have towards mast step area. Eg laden keelsun for a beating.
Flooding was just a Mindstorms, baaaa D call whilst a sheep. Heavier equipment etc, my thoughts had tornadoes picking up light stuff..

But weighting fore improvement of handling just makes sense. Help improve bite of plane thus slow her dance, useful for beating.
Whereas if spares kept aft, weight will rock her over crest later, pitch higher, improve plane speed, increase load on anchoring equipment.
Mast step bilge generally a neat call, in middle of rocker, removing weights from rockers leverage.
You have storage lockers that you know positions of.
Best luck sir.

[MicHughV]

one word ...Northill......it's what the shrimpers here use when they go up the creeks during a storm..they are hard to find, as they are not made anymore, but used one's are on the market. The shrimper manufacture their own.
mine is a collapsible stainless steel model, I named it "Brutus"..

[CruiseN]

Heavier chain too? Probably mentioned.
Don't give shank the chance to lift and bite of anchor improvement is significantly higher.

In rough weather we used to v berth. Sleep sucks but equipment stressed less. Simply put up with flying now and then. To slow vessel down.

[JebLostInSpace]

Originally Posted by CruiseN

Heavier chain too? Probably mentioned.
Don't give shank the chance to lift and bite of anchor improvement is significantly higher.

There's been a lot of discussion in a lot of threads about this. Realistically, I'm not going to get any catenary benefit out of the chain in hurricane force winds. The chain is going to be straightened out, and the angle of pull on the shank will be determined entirely by how much scope I put out. Luckily, these modern anchors continue to dig down, even when rode is straight at like 5:1 scope. That's why new-generation anchors are so great.

CruiseN, you've posted an awful lot on this thread. Almost none of it has been a direct answer to any of my questions. A lot of it has been downright incomprehensible since you rarely write in complete sentences, and it seems like maybe English is not your first language? All of your advice has been in the spirit of helping me anchor safely in a big storm, which I do appreciate. But all the stuff about how to set an anchor and what forces impact it are pretty far from the topic of the thread, and isn't advice I particularly need. Your intentions are good, but you're not being helpful here my friend.

[JebLostInSpace]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Depending on where you have picked, it would be a bad thing for the boat to get loose during the storm and damage something or be damaged itself.

Ann

Thanks for all the other genuinely good advice in your post Ann, but I couldn't help but tease you about the understatement of the year you made here

[CruiseN]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

There's been a lot of discussion in a lot of threads about this. Realistically, I'm not going to get any catenary benefit out of the chain in hurricane force winds. The chain is going to be straightened out, and the angle of pull on the shank will be determined entirely by how much scope I put out. Luckily, these modern anchors continue to dig down, even when rode is straight at like 5:1 scope. That's why new-generation anchors are so great.

CruiseN, you've posted an awful lot on this thread. Almost none of it has been a direct answer to any of my questions. A lot of it has been downright incomprehensible since you rarely write in complete sentences, and it seems like maybe English is not your first language? All of your advice has been in the spirit of helping me anchor safely in a big storm, which I do appreciate. But all the stuff about how to set an anchor and what forces impact it are pretty far from the topic of the thread, and isn't advice I particularly need. Your intentions are good, but you're not being helpful here my friend.

Point taken.
Thanks.

Many underestimate heavy chain though. Weighs more hence bow has to lift such. Is a much heavier spring for heavier conditions.

[Nicholson58]

We keep a last resort 180# knock down Fisherman’s anchor in the lazerette. It’s huge. I have thankfully never put it in the water. Our primary is 121# Rocna, #2 is 54# Bruce, #3 is 35# mock Danforth. We are 58 feet, 40 tons.

No such thing as too much anchor for a major storm. We used the Rocna in ten feet depth, 180 feet of chain in a hurricane blow in Newport, 2016. We were in soft muck between Goat Island and 138 causeway. Coaster Island and the causeway provided good wave cover from 45-50 knots north wind but the wild swings caused a 1/2 meter drag at each extreme. We found that wind driven current was sufficient to steer the boat and keep the swing within 20 degrees total. Hand steering three hour shifts solved the problem.

[MicHughV]

much has been discussed about chain catenary here on this forum, discussed, charted and mathematically computed, etc....as a retired structural marine engineer, I can tell you, that to straighten out an anchor chain catenary, would be near impossible ...

I have personally dove on my anchor during storms to see for myself what is going on "down there" and to no surprise, have noted that the anchor chain maintained a healthy catenary....

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

much has been discussed about chain catenary here on this forum, discussed, charted and mathematically computed, etc....as a retired structural marine engineer, I can tell you, that to straighten out an anchor chain catenary, would be near impossible ...

I have personally dove on my anchor during storms to see for myself what is going on "down there" and to no surprise, have noted that the anchor chain maintained a healthy catenary....

When our 40 ton Goliath hits the end of possible motion on every swing in +25 knots and >6:1 the chain is rod-straight. I know this from snorkeling to clean the links. Totally depends on physics

[CruiseN]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

much has been discussed about chain catenary here on this forum, discussed, charted and mathematically computed, etc....as a retired structural marine engineer, I can tell you, that to straighten out an anchor chain catenary, would be near impossible ...

I have personally dove on my anchor during storms to see for myself what is going on "down there" and to no surprise, have noted that the anchor chain maintained a healthy catenary....

I'd still rather a heavier chain. We don't get cyclones nor hurricanes down here, we get blows. Best blow we saw was 70 knot 4 day blow. At 35 knots having had a week of study, power boats left hiding spot, ran the capsize gauntlet for afew minutes to leeward passage the big ferry and use that ship as a mobile seawall. We didn't have speed. We departed 24 hours later, still blowing a gale but with a system calming the weather down.

Hence we don't have windshift problems so much, just blow. Enables long heavy rode traced to strong line. Heavy chain settling better and providing a much greater pull requirement to lift such. Aft end often had a shorter rode with a dragging anchor but we were on vessel and if shifts do occur they can be felt.

As first mate on fishing vessel; sailing vessels need give way to stink boat, skipper was same. Heavy chain does work.
I don't doubt you OP.. I dream alot, one of these dreams is flood able chambers in MY vessel when obtained but thus would increase size of vessel hence tackle too. Knowing tides to balance wind etc. All to difficult.
So does expedential of wind strength! Increases size of vessel as seen by anchor rode. Please consider heavy chain. Even if short length from shank to existing rode. Won't lift until further from chain. Chain in mud another friction in coordination with anchor. Line at vessel with length to take alot of the shock absorbance.

Ain't my ride. Just wishing you sincere best after voyages sir. Besides.. nice piece of sealed bucket weight to place near keels on later for lovely days enjoying sunshine with fresh breeze.

Best of luck is well planned for the worst.

[MicHughV]

these topics are kinda moot.....every sailor has their own particular anchor selection, rode choice, anchoring experience, etc...

I know what works for me, and am unlikely to change and I'm sure the same holds true for most sailors that have spent some time at this.

[TNLI]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

So I'm working on potential hurricane plans in Charleston, SC. Some of you may have read about that already in this thread:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...on-251302.html

It looks like plans A through D are going to involve anchoring the boat up one of the rivers here, and leaving for a few nights while the storm goes through. I got lots of good advice on that previous thread, and I think this is going to be the smart move for my situation. To that end, I've decided to get a more serious storm anchor ordered, in the hopes of worrying a little less when/if the time comes to leave the boat for a big storm.

I'm pretty sure that I want to get a Spade Anchor. I follow S/V Panope's testing videos, and the Spades performed really well in his usual tests, as well as his veer tests where he backs down hard while slowly rotating the direction of pull by 180 deg. That seems like an important situation for hurricane anchoring...

I'm open to other opinions if people think a different manufacturer of anchor would be better.

I'm also looking for advice on which size to get in the Spade. Spade's sizing recommendation chart is shown below. My Hunter 410 is 41 feet and displaces 20,000 lbs. That would put me in the 33 lb on length, or the 44 lb for weight as their recommended anchor. Since it's meant to be a storm anchor, I figure that means I should look at the 55 lb or 66 lb versions. It's almost a $300 price difference, which will sting but in the realm of preventing hurricane damage I'll gladly take the hit if the 66 lb is the right choice. But I'm interested to hear if people think it is worth it, as I do see several potential downsides to the big boy:

1. Will I have a lot of difficulty deploying/recovering an anchor that big? I have an electric windlass that I believe will handle the weight. But the anchor will be too big for my bow roller, so I'll have to heave it inboard from the roller by hand when recovering.

2. I wonder if I'll have problems setting it? Does a bigger, heavier anchor take more force to set properly? Will my boat have enough weight to get it to dig in?

3. It will be a huge PITA to store. It's heavy, so I'd want to find somewhere low and central to stow it when cruising, but I don't have many good options for something that big and awkwardly shaped. The easiest spot would be in the lazarette right aft. Is it worth worrying about 65 lbs back there?

As always, thanks to everyone for sharing your expertise and experiences!

Read the PBO test articles on spades and Danforths, as most can be bent. The classic CQR now being manufactured by Lewmar is unbreakable and the best storm anchor IF you use at least 4:1 for normal or 5+:1 in a storm of all chain rode, and set 2 anchors. A Bruce or steel Danforth both make good secondary or main anchors, although the Danforths are like most spades, they can be bent. Storm anchors should also be heavier than normal, and yes you do need to use full power in astern to set an anchor for a storm.

The RNLI offshore lifeboats use a traditional admiralty fishermans for rocks, wrecks or heavy weed, but did use a Lewmar Delta for a normal main anchor, alas when they compared the Delta with a CQR, the CQR was slightlty better, so they are going back to the old classic sometime. Don't buy copies of a CQR as they lack Lead so don't reset too well, and are often electro plated, not, hot dipped so corrode real fast.

It's also worth thinking about heading up a river or into the mangroves if a hurricane is heading your way.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by TNLI

The classic CQR now being manufactured by Lewmar is unbreakable and the best storm anchor IF you use at least 4:1 for normal or 5+:1 in a storm of all chain rode, and set 2 anchors. .

Welcome to the forum, but I think you are confusing anchor strength with holding power.

The CQR is a tough anchor (although the owner of our previous boat managed to bend one), but the heavy shank and hinge mechanism is unfortunately one factor that reduces its performance. The hinge mechanism also creates a wear point.

It struggles to set in many substrates where a modern design will perform well.

In storm conditions you want the highest holding power possible, and that is not a CQR.

Originally Posted by TNLI

Don't buy copies of a CQR as they lack Lead so don't reset too well

A genuine CQR does not have any lead.