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Old 14-08-2022, 22:12   #61
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

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I’m more worried about all the hormones that end up in the waste water output and the knock on effects that has

Waste water treatment doesn’t remove those or drugs either
Okay, we can add that to the list of concerns. Just when I thought we were getting a handle on things. [emoji6]

I wasn't aware of that. I also read that municipal water treatment also doesn't get rid of hormones and BPA, which I find a little surprising considering the amount of conditioning that goes into municipal water:

https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/dri...20disinfection.

Then there's end-user filtration, such as Brita, which we use at home (activated carbon). In a 2020 study, German scientists seemed satisfied 99% of hormones could be removed using a different type of filter that also relied on active carbon:

https://innovationorigins.com/en/new...rinking-water/

It makes me wonder A) Are consumer based filtration systems really comparable to municipal? B) Are municipal filtration systems only getting the water "good enough" to keep the costs down? C) Is water getting contaminated between the facility and the tap?

It's a heck of a rabbit hole.

At the end of the day, on our boats, we at least can control our own water treatment. It seems like a lot of good has been said about carbon filtration. I've heard some of you recommend RO (but that can be expensive per-gallon). There's UV treatment but not sure if that's really useful for this, seems doubtful.

Do you all mineralize your water after you RO it? Seems like RO and activated carbon filters are the ultimate solution here.

Why no small scale flash evaporators? No moving parts, no membranes...
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Old 14-08-2022, 22:33   #62
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

Small scale countertop distillation units exist but require power unless you want to use some sort of solar-powered gizmo like they sell for survival situations but I think the evaporation temp of these chemicals is much like water so distilled water would probably not help, says me totaliy not an expert by any means. Scaling this problem down to the level of an avg cruiser, the options are limited to already existing RO and-or activated charcoal filtration (note not all these tested the same efficacy) so as far as cruisers go its just something that you cant really do much else about really, these chemicals are everywhere not just water; that, and maybe we should vote better next time?
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Old 14-08-2022, 23:39   #63
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

I hadn't considered distillation, it seems very time intensive.

Okay, so I looked up some more stuff.... Looks like hormones are larger molecules than water so tend to get left behind during distillation. Distillation I believe is less useful for separating volatile organic compounds (VOCs) because, as you point out, the evaporation temperatures are similar. But filters can do that.

We have a flash evaporation unit onboard this boat (commercial vessel) that makes about 4,500 usg per day. It takes two electric pumps. One pumps the raw water in and also pumps the condensed brine out, which also creates vacuum on the chamber using an eductor (about -32 inHg, roughly an atmosphere) and we run the main engine raw water discharge to heat the chamber to roughly 160 fahrenheit. The second pump moves the distillate to our freshwater tanks.

It's a neat little unit. I'm not sure if it could be scaled small enough to be practical on a small boat. I kind of want to try though. [emoji2]
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Old 15-08-2022, 01:17   #64
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

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I hadn't considered distillation, it seems very time intensive.

Okay, so I looked up some more stuff.... Looks like hormones are larger molecules than water so tend to get left behind during distillation. Distillation I believe is less useful for separating volatile organic compounds (VOCs) because, as you point out, the evaporation temperatures are similar. But filters can do that.

We have a flash evaporation unit onboard this boat (commercial vessel) that makes about 4,500 usg per day. It takes two electric pumps. One pumps the raw water in and also pumps the condensed brine out, which also creates vacuum on the chamber using an eductor (about -32 inHg, roughly an atmosphere) and we run the main engine raw water discharge to heat the chamber to roughly 160 fahrenheit. The second pump moves the distillate to our freshwater tanks.

It's a neat little unit. I'm not sure if it could be scaled small enough to be practical on a small boat. I kind of want to try though. [emoji2]
The waste heat distillation units are excellent devices highly thought of by those familiar with the various methods of extracting fresh from sea water. However they do tend to have a larger footprint than the alternatives and depend upon there being a fairly constant supply of waste heat. Some of them also have
heat recovery exchangers to transfer heat from the exhaust brine to the feed sea water.

There appears to be no reason why they should not be scalable.
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Old 15-08-2022, 06:07   #65
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

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So has there been any studies of PFOAs in the food supply chain? It was mentioned earlier but I am curious if we have any numbers to back up what seems a very valid concern.
https://modernfarmer.com/2022/03/maine-farms-pfas-forever-chemicals/

Just search "Main farms contaminated soil" and several articles will be shown.
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Old 15-08-2022, 11:02   #66
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

Thank you again Gadagirl, that was a good read.

It's good to see people leading the way with personal integrity and accountability. I have a lot of respect for small farm operations. We actually stayed at an Airbnb in Maine on a farm and the family was wonderful. I miss it up there.

Going back to your earlier comment about conveniences of technology, seeing contributing products include "...waterproof clothing, food packaging and firefighting foam," goodness.

I WISH we could get away from the packaging. Everything is so over packaged. The irony we do this for sanitation for health purposes...

At least the foam is being discontinued. I will miss it's fire fighting capabilities but the problem is large amounts of waste have to be accounted for in production, training, and eventual disposal.

Waterproof clothing...... my lady gives me a hard time for wearing waxed oilskins but maybe I have the moral high ground on this one. [emoji38]
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Old 15-08-2022, 11:42   #67
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

I missed the comment about municipal water, but all my city does is run it through a giant sand filter, and inject chlorine, and fluorine to kill the bugs.
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Old 15-08-2022, 11:44   #68
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

I was walking around my local grocery store the other day.....and everything...and I mean everything on the shelf, has an ingredient list that has words I cannot pronounce.
Foremost on most ingredient lists is sugar, even a package of bacon shows sugar on the ingredients.
Pick up any bag, any can, any box, and the ingredient list will contain a dozen additives, food coloring, preservatives, etc, ad infinitum.
I am able to pick from a dozen different manufacturers, different water....filtered, spring, etc, etc, I'm sure some of it comes directly from City water.

99.99% of most food products is packaged in a neat styrofoam container, cardboard box, metal can, etc, etc.

I ponder these things.....

I never grew up like this..in my youth, bread came from the bakery..meat from the butcher....milk from the dairy...etc....

We live in a packaged world...seriously packaged......and it's mostly done in the name of "convenience".

Seems like we want everything sanitized, filtered or otherwise packaged in plastic.

A recent visit to my Dr. was much the same. These days there is a "pill" for everything. It's a multi-billion dollar a year industry.

These days kids are diagnosed with a dozen different acronyms....to cover a dozen different ailments.....

Seems like a sad commentary on modern mankind.
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Old 15-08-2022, 16:59   #69
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

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Originally Posted by thesaltytar View Post
Thank you again Gadagirl, that was a good read.

It's good to see people leading the way with personal integrity and accountability. I have a lot of respect for small farm operations. We actually stayed at an Airbnb in Maine on a farm and the family was wonderful. I miss it up there.

Going back to your earlier comment about conveniences of technology, seeing contributing products include "...waterproof clothing, food packaging and firefighting foam," goodness.

I WISH we could get away from the packaging. Everything is so over packaged. The irony we do this for sanitation for health purposes...

At least the foam is being discontinued. I will miss it's fire fighting capabilities but the problem is large amounts of waste have to be accounted for in production, training, and eventual disposal.

Waterproof clothing...... my lady gives me a hard time for wearing waxed oilskins but maybe I have the moral high ground on this one. [emoji38]
Well yes it's great to see this particular farm and then the state take steps in the discovery on just how wide spread the pollution has contaminated the food chain. But I find it alarming for some reasons.....

The practice of using "slug" to fertilize farms back in the day was not limited to the state of Maine. Back then we all were led to believe this practice was a win-win. Repurpose waste into a fertilizer. But unfortunately we didn't have the information, that we were being encouraged, packaged in a feel good way, to the benefit of industry to dispose of their waste as though it was a good thing. My Spidey senses think there was a rouse. Can you blame a gal for being sceptical after tobacco, oil industry, pharmaceutical industry?

I'm sceptical because with all of our headlines blowing up on on climate change and pollution why has this not been brought more forward to the public? No wonder Europe doesn't want to import our food!

It's not being covered in the media IMHO to the extent that it should be. Probably all states are growing and feeding crops into our food chain that are severely polluted. I'm sure it's widespread.
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Old 15-08-2022, 17:39   #70
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

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Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
I was walking around my local grocery store the other day.....and everything...and I mean everything on the shelf, has an ingredient list that has words I cannot pronounce.
Foremost on most ingredient lists is sugar, even a package of bacon shows sugar on the ingredients.
Pick up any bag, any can, any box, and the ingredient list will contain a dozen additives, food coloring, preservatives, etc, ad infinitum.
.
many of these ingredients have been in food for decades , but were never labelled so , until labelling standards changed , in fact older processed foods had some very nasty stuff in them ( lead in tins killed the Franklin Expedition in 1848 !)

Potassium Bromate and Azodicarbonamide ( banned in the EU )( long term dough conditioners )
Brominated Vegetable Oil ( banned in the EU )( used by Pepsi and coke for a long time)
Titanium Dioxide ( banned in the EU )
Yellow 5, Yellow 6, Red 40 food colouring ( must now contain a warning in the EU )

So the idea that 40 years ago stuff hadn't all this stuff is just wrong , they simply didn't tell you about it

Quote:
I am able to pick from a dozen different manufacturers, different water....filtered, spring, etc, etc, I'm sure some of it comes directly from City water
Around here , Table , Spring and Natural Mineral water have specific legal definitions , largely introduced around 1996 which means that Spring and Mineral water cannot be derived from public water systems , unless these water systems meet very strict criteria ( some may for Spring but almost impossible for Natural Mineral )

in the olden days , any auld rubbish could be sold

Quote:
99.99% of most food products is packaged in a neat styrofoam container, cardboard box, metal can, etc, etc.
These days thats largely mandated by food health and safety concerns and to limit human handling of food

Quote:
I ponder these things.....

I never grew up like this..in my youth, bread came from the bakery..meat from the butcher....milk from the dairy...etc...
.

today, my bread comes from a local bakery , my milk and eggs comes from a locla farm , my veg is organic and local and my meat comes from a local butcher with his own registered abatoir , with full herd traceabilty data provided at the shop and animals are subjected to very rigorous inspections' with extremely tight restrictions on drugs that can be injected etc

In the " olden days ", the bacterial count in milk was much higher then today , The meat was subject to very few oversights and controls and organic produce ( ie no chemicals ) was largely unknown

My food today is better , less additives and chemicals , subject to better labelling and warnings, locally sourced in many cases


its a complete fantasy to suggest that " olden days " your food was better , it wasn't certainly not around here , sure it " looked " fine but it wasnt

I agree that packaging is an issue , especially plastic packaging , but certainly here in the EU , directives under consideration , limiting single use plastics will have a dramatic effect on the plastic packaging processes and will force a change away from automatically considering plastic as the go-to packaging

ps my bread, Meat is now wrapped in waxed paper , my eggs are in carboard and my milk is in reusable glass bottles. the Plastic bag tax at supermarkets eliminated single use plastic bags ( shops no longer offer them ) and virtually everyone brings a reusable shopping bag into the supermarkets ( or you learn to carry out your groceries in your arms !!!)

in the "olden days " ie my youth , our hedgerows along roads and coasts were littered with single use plastic shopping bags , now that's a distant memory , rather like smoke in pubs
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Old 15-08-2022, 21:17   #71
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

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Well yes it's great to see this particular farm and then the state take steps in the discovery on just how wide spread the pollution has contaminated the food chain. But I find it alarming for some reasons.....



The practice of using "slug" to fertilize farms back in the day was not limited to the state of Maine. Back then we all were led to believe this practice was a win-win. Repurpose waste into a fertilizer. But unfortunately we didn't have the information, that we were being encouraged, packaged in a feel good way, to the benefit of industry to dispose of their waste as though it was a good thing. My Spidey senses think there was a rouse. Can you blame a gal for being sceptical after tobacco, oil industry, pharmaceutical industry?



I'm sceptical because with all of our headlines blowing up on on climate change and pollution why has this not been brought more forward to the public? No wonder Europe doesn't want to import our food!



It's not being covered in the media IMHO to the extent that it should be. Probably all states are growing and feeding crops into our food chain that are severely polluted. I'm sure it's widespread.
You bring up another good point and I wasn't trying to imply that the article was a GOOD thing. I don't blame you at ALL for feeling that way. If it's not in their best interest, it's not going to be advertised, and I feel that's a generous way of looking at the current situation with our water and food supply chain.

If you look at how information has been surpressed or made "controversial" because it's in someone's best interest... well history would seem likely to repeat itself (referencing tobacco, oil, pharmaceutical). I think that's why it is important we have a place to table these questions.

Unfortunately the economics that benefit the short sighted actions of one generation of industry make subsequent generations pay the price, and who knows how many generations that will be. The solution then seems to be more cautious about what we allow as exposure limits, but then this comes under fire as fear mongering. Well we really can't afford not to, at some point, because it's not like we aren't inventing new potentially more effective (ergo potentially more harmful) chemicals all the time.

Europe seems pretty far ahead of us over here on what is accepted in the supply chain and what people should be fed with.

I remember my dad (and this isn't me trying to take a dig at the above post, please don't take it that way) talking about being a boy growing up in a small town in England and how half a side of beef would be left hanging in the butcher's window for days, and of course very one survived. But that doesn't mean the meat was good. It wasn't until recently I realized this is probably why he always ate his steak well done.

He also fondly remembered his fish-n-chips being wrapped in newspaper and when the health and safety made everyone put it in wax paper instead. I grew up thinking that was silly but now realize that whatever ink they were using "in the day" bears probably no resemblance to the chemical dyes used now. So we probably should be using that wax paper.

My folks were pretty... I suppose average in the food prep department. All my veggies came from cans (we can thank the FDA for stopping people from putting copper in the peas to make them "extra green" ...!!!!) coupled with a protein and a carb.

I do feel there's a growing movement that is being actively attempted to be green washed over. With technology the way it is I was hoping COVID was going to lead to more direct-from-farm food options for vegetables, meats, cheeses, and dairy, and keep people out of the grocery stores. Seems like Europe wins again with food delivery pathways. But farmers markets are getting more popular; would love to see a daily open air market again. But can the genie be put back into the bottle? Seems like a whole different market economy.

This really should get more coverage. Who knew a post about being drinking rainwater would have made me so concerned about what I just had for dinner!
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Old 16-08-2022, 05:07   #72
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

an interesting thread for sure....

where does it stop though ???

do we all end up living in plastic ogloo's, sealed from the outside world..

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Old 16-08-2022, 06:04   #73
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

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And we are completely dependent upon it. From waterproof,stain resistant materials, to Teflon pans, to fire retardant furniture and clothing, to the foam used to combat fires at an airport.
Are we "completely dependent"?

Can phase things like teflon out the same way as CFC?

I think I would be ok without teflon and a lot of these other chemicals...
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Old 16-08-2022, 06:59   #74
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

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Are we "completely dependent"?

Can phase things like teflon out the same way as CFC?

I think I would be ok without teflon and a lot of these other chemicals...
Phase out started in 2006 and was completed by 2015, at least in the U.S.

https://www.ecowatch.com/teflon-heal...513815444.html
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Old 16-08-2022, 07:15   #75
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Re: Is rain no longer potable?

Here's an interactive map of contaminated sites in the US and 2 territories

https://www.ewg.org/interactive-maps/pfas_contamination/

Home page of the site that offers a lot of information

https://www.ewg.org/
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