Wind is better than solar. Discuss

[Na Mara]

Beautiful boat Pelagic!

The key difference between you and I is our programs. You live aboard, I take long holidays aboard. These can be up to a year but are normally only for 2-3 months. For me the look is a big part of my pride in ownership and as I am not living aboard I am prepared to make compromises to keep that look.

rislifkin

I have said previously that the one place I would be willing to add panels is on the pilothouse roof. Solid black semi flex wouldn’t look too bad. That’s what a neighbour has on the same model and it looks ok. Problem is that he isn’t getting much out of his 300W capacity due to shading. Typically about 100W. It’s better than nothing but it’s not going to keep the lights on.

[250224]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

Blu I also thought the Flinsail was a great idea, and they have sold a few to happy customers. I could even do it using my trisail track despite having roller reefing. It’s such a shame that I can’t get hold of them.

The https://flin-solar.com/imprint has a phone number. I suppose contact should be possible, I mean Kiel is not that far from Sweden.. and a nice Sirius 35 video has been done quite recently (english subtitles)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTP6js-dtDU

.

I’ve even considered buying 4 or five of these and rigging up my own such system.
https://www.asseaboat.com/en/sun-bar...104wp-1109x546 [snip]

Thus price-wise the flinsolar is about the same, basically ~800 € per 100 W panel. Brrr! -- Some time before I was thinking about extending my fixed solar with folding panels*. Would be considerably cheaper (half - third) but likely less good quality and isn't it somewhat nice when the panels have their predetermined fixed place?

@pelagic: nice looking boat!

*e.g. https://www.amazon.com/BLUETTI-Porta.../dp/B08JZ62F8L

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

Beautiful boat Pelagic!

The key difference between you and I is our programs. You live aboard, I take long holidays aboard. These can be up to a year but are normally only for 2-3 months. For me the look is a big part of my pride in ownership and as I am not living aboard I am prepared to make compromises to keep that look.

Yes, fully understand, there is no right or wrong, just what works for you.



Summarizing and Thinking outside the box.
You love the aesthetics of how the boat is now.
Enough Solar or wind might destroy that

Cosider making your housebank more efficient If you don't already have Lithium and forget Solar or wind Gen.

A large case alternator or small Gen to charge at anchor and shore power at the prolific number of marinas in your area.

This might be a more suitable investment for your priorities .

Thought I'd share the weather I'm experiencing now

The Eye just passed over us 20 minutes ago.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by stormalong

Na Mara: You do not give any information about your boat. That makes it more difficult to comment but here goes.

Do you have a bimini over your cockpit? Does your boom extend over your cockpit? A bimini is an ideal place to put solar if it is not shaded. A little reinforcing of a standard bimini frame can hold your solar. That is what I did. I had four custom brackets and two rails made to mount to my bimini and two additional posts to make the bimini stiffer. It holds 390 watts of solar. Your 5000 euro price sounds like it includes the price of the arch. Some small reinforcing and small custom stainless work is far less expensive than an arch and much lighter too.

On solar vs wind. Wind will disappoint you. You need 15 knots to make minimal power. Solar is silent and on long summer days produces a lot of power. I have both. The upside with wind is if you are in a very windy place or on windy rainy days when solar doesn't produce.

Anyone want to buy an AirX with Air+ blades and a nine foot pole?


Edit: I see from your post above that you don't want or have a bimini. How big is your pilot house roof? As someone else posted while I was typing me response: An arch or davits are not needed for solar. Look around and think about rail mounts. I would rather buy additional panels (cheap these days) than add an expensive, heavy arch.

Pm sent

[sck5]

In the Baltic you might wonder whether solar or wind is better because you are at latitude 55 or 60. In the tropics there is no real contest - Solar is in its happy place in, eg. the Caribbean where most anchorages are on the lee side of islands and so dont get much wind.

[Na Mara]

Blu I need a face palm emoji. I totally missed their number on the site. I’ll try calling them tomorrow as this is a perfect solution for me (see below).

Pelagic, Jim was already onto the whole big LFP battery to bridge between sails, generation underway, thing. I very much like this idea. Max out on the hydro generation and alternator so that I guarantee arriving on a full charge. Live off the battery whilst in harbour, maybe with some fold out solar to help, and then recharge next time I move. I can fit 8kWh of LFP easily in the battery bay and I have a 90hp engine so it’s all very doable.

If I can get a hold of the Flinsail then arriving fully charged becomes less important and the battery size can be reduced. And I won’t need a big alternator. I like the idea of being able to run 600W of solar on the hook and then replace that with 600W of hydro underway, all of which can be stowed below when marina hopping between plugs. It gives me lots of options and let’s me have the look when the fancy takes me.

Sck5, actually the Baltic has very light winds in the summer. The North Sea, Skagerrak and Kattegat are high wind regions but the Baltic is very seasonal in its wind speed distribution. Also we have long days in summer so total solar output is almost the same as in the Caribbean (4.5kWh per m2 per day)

[Na Mara]

News update…

There is life at Flinsail! They got back to me with a quote for their 600W system. Apparently they had computer problems over the summer and my earlier contact attempts got caught up in that. They were very nice about it and it’s all good.

Flinsail 600W plus Victron controller and VAT all for less than 5000€.

Pros
1 I can’t think of any other way of getting that much effective solar power on my boat without ruining her lines.
2 System works well at all latitudes I am going to sail in as you can tilt the panels.
3 Panels stay cool for maximum efficiency.
4 easily stowed below when desired.
5 easily hoisted in 5 minutes or so by one person.
6 decent wattage for the money
7 very light.
8 easily repaired
9 no holes in the deck. Even the cables can come up though my keel stepped mast!

Cons
1 Can’t be left up in very strong winds. Hence not very useful as a trickle charger when off the boat (
Solution, strap a solid cheap 50W panel to something around the mast area for trickle charging.) and you would need to be a little careful about leaving it up overnight (Solution, just drop it into its bag on the boom at dusk and hoist it at dawn).
2 Can’t be used underway unless you forego use of the main.
3 You’d have to be on the ball about chafe and wear in the system.
4 some extra windage at anchor and at the dock

None of those cons are very serious. Am I missing something?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

None of those cons are very serious. Am I missing something?

I have never seen the system, but flexible solar panels are reasonably fragile. My concern would be that this system would cause flexing of the panels that may lead to a short life.

Rigid solar panels are incredibly reliable. Flexible panels typically have a shorter life even when mounted with minimal flexing. Normally flexible solar panels can be replaced periodically and will likely more than earn their keep during their service life, but this Flinsail system is new and relatively expensive.

I stress again I have no practical experience with this system so whether these concerns are valid only time will tell.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

News update…

There is life at Flinsail! They got back to me with a quote for their 600W system. Apparently they had computer problems over the summer and my earlier contact attempts got caught up in that. They were very nice about it and it’s all good.

Flinsail 600W plus Victron controller and VAT all for less than 5000€.

Pros
1 I can’t think of any other way of getting that much effective solar power on my boat without ruining her lines.
2 System works well at all latitudes I am going to sail in as you can tilt the panels.
3 Panels stay cool for maximum efficiency.
4 easily stowed below when desired.
5 easily hoisted in 5 minutes or so by one person.
6 decent wattage for the money
7 very light.
8 easily repaired
9 no holes in the deck. Even the cables can come up though my keel stepped mast!

Cons
1 Can’t be left up in very strong winds. Hence not very useful as a trickle charger when off the boat (
Solution, strap a solid cheap 50W panel to something around the mast area for trickle charging.) and you would need to be a little careful about leaving it up overnight (Solution, just drop it into its bag on the boom at dusk and hoist it at dawn).
2 Can’t be used underway unless you forego use of the main.
3 You’d have to be on the ball about chafe and wear in the system.
4 some extra windage at anchor and at the dock

None of those cons are very serious. Am I missing something?

Interesting concept, but I would share Nolex's concern about reliability

What type of warranty do they offer? For how long?

https://youtu.be/-ALdfxuXzA0

As far as deployment, fairly labour intensive and as noted, sensitive to higher winds or gusty bullets off of mountains.


Personally, I think they look ugly and Mickey Mouse.

https://youtu.be/-ALdfxuXzA0

For 400 to 600w of Solar, i would rather find attractive low profile side mount rigid panels, that can be left down to trickle charge when away from boat and deployed even when sailing

Try making a 1/4 inch Ply mockup of long, skinny panels for the side rail, to see if that would work

[Na Mara]

I agree that reliability is a concern, but it always is with new tec. The question is: is it worth the risk. For my usage profile I think it is. 10months most years this is stowed. Underway I charge big batteries off the alternator and hydrogenerator. The Flinsail is mostly a fair weather fall back for between sails if the battery runs low. Think of it as a fancy very big foldable panel. It won’t be used very much and when it isn’t in use it’s stowed protected from the elements.

Another way to do the same thing would be a fuel cell or a diesel generator, but the former only has a 5000hr life span and an output of 100W and has difficult to acquire fuel, while the latter costs big bucks and is noisy.

It’s less labor intensive to raise and lower this than it is to do my cockpit tent and I manage that after every arrival and before each departure. One more small job won’t kill me

Finally beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I think this looks kind of cool.

[250224]

Regarding reliability there was a question on the Flinsail/Sirius video which I mentioned above. Translated:

Q: The construction will not last very long. If the wind blows up overnight, you won't get the panel down fast enough. I'm curious about your long-term experience.

A: Moin [Hello] Ralf, the solar modules in the FLINsails are based on Smart-Wire technology and are extremely resistant. The modules were specially selected and extensively tested in a test rig. Nevertheless, you should not use the FLINsail in strong winds.

I have no idea what Smart-Wire (SWCT) is and how/if it really helps with longevity.

Rigid panels certainly are preferable but what to do if you don't have the space? Also they are much heavier, not sure I wanted them to mount on the side rail. And where to store when not in use (wouldn't want to let them in place b/c of windage)? Without an arch (or a cat, smile) it's quite difficult.

[Na Mara]

I read in the info that the panels were tested up to 38 kn. At anchor the weather cocking of the boat should protect the panels somewhat from unexpected gust and side loading. I would probably keep it up into gusting 30kn, and then remove it to leave a good safety margin.

To be honest most renewable systems require disabling in heavy to extreme conditions. Surf too fast down a wave with a hydro generator in the water and you overload it. Fail to tie down wind turbines in over 40 kn and many will fail. Even solar panels on an arch need removing when preparing for extreme weather. The nice thing about the Flin in this respect is that removal and stowage is so easy.

The deck space argument is also what sells me on this.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Regarding reliability there was a question on the Flinsail/Sirius video which I mentioned above. Translated:

Q: The construction will not last very long. If the wind blows up overnight, you won't get the panel down fast enough. I'm curious about your long-term experience.

A: Moin [Hello] Ralf, the solar modules in the FLINsails are based on Smart-Wire technology and are extremely resistant. The modules were specially selected and extensively tested in a test rig. Nevertheless, you should not use the FLINsail in strong winds.

I have no idea what Smart-Wire (SWCT) is and how/if it really helps with longevity.

Rigid panels certainly are preferable but what to do if you don't have the space? Also they are much heavier, not sure I wanted them to mount on the side rail. And where to store when not in use (wouldn't want to let them in place b/c of windage)? Without an arch (or a cat, smile) it's quite difficult.

My install
2 different boats but same type install on the rails
Survives just fine in up to 60 knots possibly higher don't know I was sleeping in that storm

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

Finally beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I think this looks kind of cool.

Agreed. A cool and potentially useful option. Even if my concerns are validated and the durability is less than stellar, it may still be a better option than a generator for many boats.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

It’s less labor intensive to raise and lower this than it is to do my cockpit tent and I manage that after every arrival and before each departure. One more small job won’t kill me

Finally beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I think this looks kind of cool.

I am sure it will look much better on your boat, than on the video.

Keep us updated on the actual performance.
Also curious as to how much storage space it will take?